STEVE AUSTIN: Four Corners went to air last night, and the question that came out of it for me was would the federal government support deep sea mining for rare earths, those polymetallic nodules from the seabed that apparently are worth trillions of dollars. Well, Madeleine King is the Minister for Resources and Minister for Northern Australia. She’s in Queensland at the moment, and I asked her would the federal government – would they support something like deep sea mining as another source of rare earths that we need for the renewable energy transition.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, the thing is Australia has so much rich geology above ground where our expertise lies right now and has been built upon by, you know, many, many decades of mining. So we have the geology above the ground rather than the seabed. So I’m really concentrating on that. And we’re really – we’re not fortunate but we’ve worked really hard over many years to build this industry. And I congratulate the pioneers of the mining industry because we now stand on the cusp of being able to mine and process and refine those very same critical minerals that you refer to that can also be found on the seabed in those nodules. But really importantly, we have the mines operating right now with all the environmental approvals, all the safety regulations and jobs and communities that support them. So I’m really concentrating on the above-ground critical minerals, because that’s what we have really right now and we can play a really pivotal role in that global supply chain before we even think about it going into the sea. But I might add on that exact topic, this is – you know, we’re talking really serious business there where there’s not as much research as one would hope. There are yet to be regulations that the international community has agreed to on seabed mining. In my mind, it feels like a really scary place for us to go when we already know what we can control environmentally and work with above ground, as we have done for so many years.

STEVE AUSTIN: The President of the United States appears interested. The man who came up with the idea and apparently has the technology is actually an Australian bloke from Queensland here as it turns out, the Darling Downs, Gerard Barron is his name. Let me play you what he told Four Corners briefly.

[Excerpt]

GERARD BARRON: To form the infrastructure that our society depends on, whether it’s electric vehicle batteries, cobalt, of course, is used for batteries and copper is used for so many things for electrification, you couldn’t wish for a better mix of metals inside this nodule. And they estimate there’s more than 20 billion tonnes of nodules in the area where we are focused. So more than 20 billion tonnes, and they’re worth a lot of money. And so I’ve seen estimates that say $20 trillion, and that probably feels about right.

[Excerpt ends]

STEVE AUSTIN: Gerard Barron, Minister. So, I guess the question is, if we don’t, won’t that mean that China, the US or someone else will?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I mean, I take the point that Gerard made. Like, it’s worth a lot of money. But, equally, there’s a lot of those very same minerals sitting above ground ready to go in Australia. They’re in places where we’ve explored deeply and we’re ready to mine. I think what’s really important is that the world does come together around regulating what happens in seabed mining because of the immense potential for damage. You know, it’s – I’ve seen some of the footage – and I haven’t watched the whole report I must say, and I will catch up with that.

STEVE AUSTIN: Sure.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I was at the Women in Resources Awards last night. But you know there’s a lot of uncertainty around it still. And I think we need to have a bit of patience and judgement on this and really turn to what we’re very good at, which at the moment is mining and processing, on the continent itself where we can manage those risks and think about how we deal with the environment and protect that as well as do the mining. And I don’t think we’ve yet – well, I know we haven’t yet come to that in regards to the seabed. So there’s a lot of unknowns there and I think, like most people, I would worry about what could happen in a place like Queensland where you’ve got some remarkable offshore treasures like the Great Barrier Reef. And I know what they’re talking about is much further away than that, but in our imagination we think of how those things might be damaged by this kind of operation. And we really need to have some international agreement on how this proceeds.

STEVE AUSTIN: My guest is the federal Minister for Resources and Minister for Northern Australia, Madeleine King is her name. This is 612 ABC Brisbane. Minister, while much of the world is distracted by Donald Trump, I’d like to focus on China, of which Australia has a very close trading and important relationship with. China is – nearly has what would appear significant control over rare earth and precious metals, vital for not only the renewable energy transition but also for defence purposes. They’re trying to collapse the global copper market and gain control through vertical integration. They’ve collapsed the nickel market and gained global dominance. What’s the federal government’s plan to deal with or to cope with this, Madeleine King?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah, thanks, it’s a correct observation that China does dominate the critical minerals and rare earths market. And they have been able to do this through decades of effort and much of the western world really outsourcing mining and refining in critical minerals and rare earths. In Australia we’ve still been mining them, but we haven’t moved along that processing path. So the federal government is determined that Australia will have a critical minerals and rare earths mining and processing industry that can start to compete with China. And it’s about competition. We’re coming – we’re a couple of decades behind here so we’ve got to get moving and we’ve got to take up our responsibility to lead globally, because of those resources that our geology has gifted this country. And it is really important. It’s really important for green technologies, but it’s also really important, as you say, for defence applications.

STEVE AUSTIN: So what’s the plan, is my question. What’s the plan?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: What’s the plan? Yeah, it’s a fair question. With the critical minerals strategy introduced after coming into government the last term, but more recently we’ve invested really heavily in a $17 billion program of production tax credits. We are developing right now and have had a number of really productive meetings with industry on the critical minerals strategic reserve, which is about how the government’s investment vehicles can help lift the pricing of rare earths so that we are not all subject to that market manipulation. And I note the US has started doing this – the Department of Defense over there has invested in a light rare earths mine called Mountain Pass, and, really, that’s a big step – a big step – in how governments can work in this space to change the market. So we’re really focused on how we build a new competitive market in the face of what is really quite an oppressive force of a closed, opaque market that has built up over 20 years, 30 years from overseas. So it’s a big challenge, but we have to take it on.

STEVE AUSTIN: But isn’t it too late? Isn’t it too late? Unless you can get the price of wages way down to compete with China or the price of energy way down to compete, it’s too late.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: No, not at all, Steve. I mean, I accept it’s challenging, absolutely. But, you know, we’re not going to give up worker conditions and, you know, the lifestyle and the safety conditions and the environmental conditions that give this industry of ours, this resources sector, the social licence to continue to operate. But what we do compete in is it being an independent supply chain. So this is really important to our – excuse me – friends and partners in the US but also in Japan and also in Korea. And that’s why they’ve invested particularly in this rare earths and critical minerals space. The Japanese and Koreans have been investing in companies like Lynas in Western Australia, the Koreans are investing in a project in the Northern Territory, Arafura, which is really important about diversifying their rare earths supply chain. So the Australian government has stepped up. There’s $28 billion worth of commitments since I’ve become minister that have gone into the critical minerals and are continuing to go into the critical minerals and rare earths space. Now, that’s going to take a bit of time, but, you know, there is a ground swell in industry, in government, in our state and territory governments to support this as well as, again, with international governments who need a diversified supply chain so we’re not all relying on one source.

STEVE AUSTIN: Copper, though, is not listed by your government as a critical mineral, I think. Why not?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: It’s a strategic material. There is an abundance of copper. That is the case. But we – and, you know, there are difficulties in some of the, as you know, smelter up in Mt Isa, which is, you know, we’re working on with the state government as we speak about how we see that through a really particularly tough time.

STEVE AUSTIN: Are you going to do something about that? Because pre the federal election your government bailed out the Whyalla smelter, but this one at Glencore is a unique smelter and it’s due to close in a week, two weeks. I mean, it’s just – and it will take years, a couple of years, to start it up again if it shuts down.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: We’re working really hard on this. And Minister Tim Ayres has direct responsibility, and I speak with him fairly – very regularly on this and we speak with the Queensland state government as to how – and Glencore as well as the operator.

STEVE AUSTIN: There’s only a week or two weeks left, though. So there must be an announcement due very, very soon.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I’m not going to pre-empt any announcements, but you can – and your listeners can rest assured that we know how important this smelter is to the community. It’s the hub of activity of Mt Isa. It is really important capacity for the nation, and we have lost some capacity in the past. I mean, Nickel West was a refinery in my electorate in Western Australia that did cease production a couple of years ago. And that is really difficult for the community. And I think for Mt Isa it’s even more so because it is such a hub of community activity and the industry there. So we’re very alive and very focused on this issue. But I can’t pre-empt any announcement. That is all being worked through literally as we speak, Steve.

STEVE AUSTIN: My guest is the Minister for Resources and the Minister for Northern Australia, federal cabinet Minister Madeleine King is her name. This is 612 ABC Brisbane, Steve Austin is my name. Finally, what happened to the $5 billion NAIF fund instigated by the previous government? I’m keen to know where we would see the money distributed in northern Australia, particularly Queensland at the moment?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, the NAIF fund has been a tremendous success. It was off to a slow start but we have made sure there is funding getting out the door. In Queensland there are 14 projects that have been funded by the NAIF or in part by the NAIF; it usually brings in other investment. And that’s about a $1.7 billion investment of government. And really importantly it works on a lot of projects, so in Gladstone it’s provided loans to a high purity alumina refinery. It’s supported a number of developments around regional airports in Townsville, Cairns and Rockhampton, which have transformed these airports, which are the hubs of activity, you know, for tourism but also locals that need to get about the state, of course. Housing projects in Cairns, NAIF last year announced it’s supporting a seniors housing program. And even Mount Morgan, you know, a really historical mine in Queensland, the tailings and processing site has been upgraded and worked on, and that’s through about a $66 million loan from NAIF. So there’s a range of projects across a range of sectors and interests where the Northern Australia Infrastructure Facility is continuing to attract that – it brings its own capital but, really importantly, brings in the capital from others as well to develop the north.

STEVE AUSTIN: Before I let you go, about 60 per cent of the coal mines in Queensland are running at a loss at the moment and the industry is yelling very loudly for the state government to reverse the royalties regime brought in the by the previous state Labor government. The new government has refused to do that. Do you think they should, to keep the coal industry and the mining industry viable here in Queensland, Minister?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I would note that the coal royalties position in Queensland is very bipartisan. It’s something the former Labor government introduced and it’s been carried on by the LNP government at the moment.

STEVE AUSTIN: Yes.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: So it really is a matter for the state government and I’m not going to intervene in what would be a – well, you know, very bipartisan matter. So what I do know is that the companies have regular discussions with the current minister, Minister Dale Last, but also others in government as well. And I accept it’s been challenging for the industry. They do speak to me about it, but, you know, this is in the purview of the state governments and it would be no good for a federal minister to try and intervene in state royalties regimes. States are quite rightly very independent. They have the rights to royalties and it’s up to them how they do it. And I just urge that both the state government and the industry just continue that high level of engagement into the future because of – it’s clearly creating some pressure.

STEVE AUSTIN: You’ve been very generous with your time. Minister Madeleine King, thanks very much.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: It’s a pleasure. Thanks, Steve.

STEVE AUSTIN: Madeleine King is Minister for Resources and Minister for Northern Australia.