Interview on Triple J Hack with Dave Marchese

DAVE MARCHESE, HOST: Let's get into this with the Government now, find out what the Government is planning to do a little more, prosecute it a little more with the Industry and Innovation Minister, Tim Ayres. Minister, welcome to Hack.

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: G'day. It's great to be on Hack.

HOST: It's been a big day, I imagine, for the Government.

AYRES: Yeah, it's an important day. AI standards for large data centres, but also bringing artificial intelligence into the office of the Prime Minister to set this as a national priority and make sure that we're delivering the artificial intelligence capability that Australia needs on Australia's terms, in our national interest.

HOST: I want to get into some of the detail in a little bit, but before we start, do you use AI? Are you a person that uses a bit of AI?

AYRES: Yeah, I use it in some of my, like, work life. I use it in my home life. You know, it's obviously transforming all of Australia's work and home and business lives. It's going to be a transformative technology, not just for Australia, but right around the world. It engages all sorts of challenges, challenges in the labour market, challenges about the way that work is conducted, making sure that large data centres are adding to our electricity network, not undermining our electricity network. If we get this right and do it in an Australian way, on Australia's terms, we'll deliver a good economic outcome for the country in terms of jobs, in terms of economic opportunity, but will also make Australia safer and more resilient.

HOST: Obviously, there's a lot of interest in our audience from musicians and artists who want to make sure that their work is protected. I mean, can you categorically rule out the prospect of AI companies training on Australian copyright material without consent?

AYRES: Yeah. Yes. We have been very clear on this question from the get go. There'll be no text and data mining exemption in Australia. There won't be any weakening of copyright protections because we know how important that is, not just for individual artists and creatives, but it's also important for Australia's culture. Like that's an important part of our resilience and our sovereignty.

HOST: Because there were reports that the Government was confidentially considering two different proposals to change copyright policy for AI training. You're saying they're off the table?

AYRES: We have been consistent all the way along. I read those reports. Every time that I or anybody else in the Government has been asked. We have been very consistent. No text and data mining exemption for Australia.

HOST: What about expanded licensing agreements? Because a licensing extension is a little bit different because it would preserve some form of payment or permission system. Is that on the table?

AYRES: Well, the Attorney General is leading discussions, including with the arts community and with rights holders in the music industry, because I guess a lot of –

HOST: Artists just want to know how they're going to get paid.

AYRES: Yeah, that's right. And of course, if you're a journalist working for a news organisation or somebody working in academia, or the holder of copyright, making sure that those benefits flow through to everybody is an important part of the system. But we have a copyright system. That's the way that it works. We'll work within the confines of that system to deliver the right outcome for Australia.

HOST: How protected are Australian artists? Because we've just heard from a lot of Australian musicians who found out that their music is in data sets overseas that could be used to train AI, and they didn't give permission for that. They don't feel like they've been protected at all.

AYRES: This is the challenge at the moment, AI training happening in other jurisdictions overseas, precious little protection for Australian artists. We want to see artificial intelligence training happening here on our terms, which means consistent with our copyright protections. That is a better position for the Australian arts community than the current position, which is they are reliant upon the copyright laws and frameworks in other countries where they haven't paid attention to these issues in the same way that the Australian Government is.

HOST: Even with that position, though, and I know the Prime Minister's been saying, musicians, artists, they're going to maintain control and anything less is theft. How do you police this stuff if all the big companies are overseas?

AYRES: Well, that's going to be the subject of more discussion led by the Attorney General. There are not straightforward answers. Some of them are technological.

HOST: You can also imagine that it would be really difficult jurisdictionally, obviously, but also financially, so expensive for people to take this through the courts. And, you know, a lot of the artists that we're hearing from are young people and they might not have a big following. They're definitely not making a living off their music. A lot of these people still feel like they're going to be stuck going forward.

AYRES: Yeah. And these are the kind of issues that are engaged more broadly in copyright. You know, when you're talking about platforms like Spotify or other music platforms, the same kind of issues are engaged here. And that's why we need a practical answer to these challenges, which sits within our existing copyright protection.

HOST: Just on that point that I mentioned before, the examples of the Australian artists who found that their work has been included in these data sets. They had no idea, they didn't give permission. What do you make of that? Like, do you think it's ethical that AI companies have potentially already benefited from artists work without them knowing?

AYRES: Well, as I say, these issues are happening in other jurisdictions.

HOST: But do you think it's ethical?

AYRES: Well, it's, it's not consistent with Australia's copyright protection.

HOST: Is it ethical?

AYRES: Well, I don't think so. I mean, I hold a view as an Australian and as a member of the Government that copyright is only meaningful when there's a payment involved. Artists have got a right to say yes or no to the way that their content is used. I mean, that's the only way that these protections are meaningful. They're there for a reason. Artists are workers, Australian creatives and Australian artists. So, no, I don't think it's ethical, but we've got a responsibility here in Australia to build an Australian answer.

HOST: All right, this is Hack. I'm Dave Marchese, I'm speaking with the Industry and Innovation Minister, Tim Ayres, and we're talking about AI. Minister, something a lot of people are saying is the horse has already bolted here. Like many are saying, we should have been on this years ago, we've left it too late and even you are saying now we have a lot of issues to sort out still, there's a long way to go.

AYRES: This is a world leading approach. This is Australia leading on these questions. The same way as controversially, we led on age limits for social media restrictions, the same way that we've led on a range of other questions.

HOST: You know, people have been raising these issues for a long time as well.

AYRES: This is Australia leading the work on these questions. Data Centre Expectations, the Artificial Intelligence Plan for Australia implemented and developed in a steady way over the course of this Government's time in office. We are in a much stronger position on artificial intelligence, for example, than we were on social media. I would much rather be in the position that we're in than any other country on earth.

HOST: Can we get to data centres? Because it is something that has concerned a lot of people. We've been speaking about them a bit on this show over the past few months and people have some worries. Are you confident that this plan from the Government is going to do enough to protect the environment, water usage, land, all that kind of stuff?

AYRES: Yeah. If we set the standards high for Australia, we get a good national outcome. So, that is on the electricity questions, making sure that artificial intelligence data centres are underwriting new electricity generation and transmission means more electricity in the grid, means a better outcome for consumers. We've seen what's happened overseas in some jurisdictions, like, you know, in the United States, where in some states they have not planned adequately. And AI data centres, power hungry, are using up existing power and pushing up prices for consumers. That won't be the Australian way. Data Centre Expectations make that really clear. The data centre standards will make that mandatory.

HOST: A lot of people are obviously really worried about these centres popping up in their communities. How do you feel about data centres going up near homes?

AYRES: Well, I look at data centre development in the same way that I look at renewable energy development and other industrial developments. They are all important. We require all of this investment. I want to see wind farms and solar farms. Also want to make sure that Australia has the digital infrastructure and data centre infrastructure that it needs. They all have to satisfy the planning requirements. The Prime Minister was really clear today that we want data centres to be in the right places. I was in the Upper Hunter Valley yesterday in Muswellbrook and Singleton. Those councils want to see data centre developments in those former power station sites. They want to see them co-located with electricity infrastructure. They want to see them driving new electricity infrastructure in investment.

HOST: There are people, though, that are concerned with data centres popping up near their homes. Like, yes, you're saying there are some who want them in their communities. I would note that the examples you're giving are places outside of residential areas. What about places that are pretty close? Would you be happy for a data centre near your home?

AYRES: Well, it depends, doesn't it, whether it satisfies the requirements. This is the perennial development problem. We don't want a Not In My Backyard approach, but we also have to make sure that data centre development happens in the right places. The standards will go to some of those questions and it does mean local government and state government and the Commonwealth having the same approach. There's not a race to the bottom on data centre standards.

HOST: All right. Industry and Innovation Minister Tim Ayres. Really appreciate you coming on Hack.

AYRES: Thanks, mate. Anytime.