Interview with Patricia Karvelas, ABC Afternoon Briefing

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: To discuss more about the Government's plan for artificial intelligence, I want to bring in the Industry and Science Minister, Tim Ayres, who will work on the design of these new national standards. Tim Ayres, welcome to the program. 

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: Patricia. G'day. 

HOST: The PM says you will legislate a set of Australian standards for artificial intelligence. I have previously pressed you on whether legislation will be introduced. It didn't seem that the Government was keen on it. What's changed? 

AYRES: Well, we've been working through these issues, since I was appointed, as a government and the Prime Minister's speech today, I think, it was a pretty exciting speech to be in the room for. We had the tech community all the way through to trade unions, artists and artist organisations all in the one room together elevating, as the Prime Minister did, this set of issues as a set of national interest questions. Setting out Australian standards for data centres and moving along from the Data Centre Expectations – that I released alongside with Assistant Minister Andrew Charlton earlier this year. We'd been engaged in a discussion with the States about those Data Centre Expectations. Working with large tech firms who have signed Memorandums of Understanding. It is now time to move to make those standards mandatory and consistent across the country so that data centre development – large data centre development – and artificial intelligence more broadly is adopted here on Australia's terms in our national interest. That's what the speech does. It does that work. It sets up some more clarity and allows government to be in a position where we can drive this set of issues across government and across Australian governments to deliver for the national interest.  

HOST: Your predecessor in the role, Ed Husic, was pushing for guardrails on AI at the time. The Government really rebuked that approach. Was he right? Because that's the path you're taking now, isn't it? 

AYRES: Well, what the Prime Minister announced today was Australian standards, for large data centres, and we intend to legislate early next year to make sure that on those questions that are captured in the Data Centre Expectations that they are mandatory, national, universal. We've made good progress, really. I mean, since we've begun work on these issues in the middle of last year, the National Artificial Intelligence Plan set the direction, the establishment of the Artificial Intelligence Safety Institute built on the work that was done last term by my predecessor establishing the National Artificial Intelligence Centre about adoption across the economy. The Data Centre Expectations, which are all about energy, water, community benefit, working those issues through with states and territories and large tech organisations [and] now moving to making those mandatory. There is a steady workmanlike process that we've adopted here to get these issues right. And this will be a world-leading approach. We will be – put aside our natural advantages here and the national interest that means that we must engage with these questions – we will be the only country on earth that takes this world-leading approach. It sits very comfortably alongside the tough approach that we've taken on social media and a whole range of these questions.  

HOST: So, Minister, can I ask you in terms of the legislation which the Government has said, the Prime Minister has said, will be introduced at the time of next year, is it about the guardrails just for these data centres or will it go beyond that? 

AYRES: Well, we'll be engaging carefully and that's why the Office of Artificial Intelligence is so important. Focused in particular on these large data centre developments. In particular, Patricia, the national interest questions here that sit around securing artificial intelligence training, that is the construction site. I think Pope Leo referred to it as the construction site of artificial intelligence technology. We don't want to be just, you know, customers at the end of a long supply chain of other people's technology. I want to see, and part of the backdrop of the Prime Minister's speech was that idea of agency, Australian agency and sovereignty. We want to see Australia be part of the construction of this new technology so, it's done here on our terms and much of that is the subject of the Australian standards. 

HOST: So, will the Australian Standards talk about and invest in actually building a sovereign capability that we build, we own, we keep technology? 

AYRES: We will be legislating standards for large data centres. There is already in Australia a very healthy industry of narrow data set LLMs in manufacturing, in agricultural technology, in resources technology. That is an area of Australian expertise. That will continue to happen using narrow Australian data sets. But in terms of the large frontier data centres and training, what this legislation will do is establish the basis for that investment to happen here on Australia's terms and in Australia's interest. 

HOST: The Prime Minister mentioned the strongest possible protection for Australian artists and Australian media. What does that look like? Does that mean that a big deal with a company like Anthropic $15 billion (USD) being on the table, Is that now off the table? Can you be clear? 

AYRES: Well, I think the Prime Minister was very clear in terms of our approach on copyright, ruling out a text and data mining exemption for Australia. The Attorney General is leading that process. We have an existing copyright framework. We have artists, creatives, journalists, copyright holders who should be paid for their work. And we want to use the framework to deliver that outcome. That does require getting people together and continuing to work through that process. Attorney General Michelle Rowland is leading that work and will continue to lead that work under the framework. 

HOST: So, it's about building a payment mechanism? 

AYRES: Well, all of these questions will be being dealt with by the Attorney General. Suffice to say this is a set of questions. We've ruled out exemptions for copyright for text and data mining. The Prime Minister's speech is very clear today – this is in the national interest, in every Australian's interest that we secure AI training and other essential parts of this new technology here in Australia on Australia's terms. And that means everybody needs to lift and engage with these issues in a way that's focused on the national interest. And the discussions I've had, not just today, but including today, but in the lead-up today, have been very encouraging on that front.  

HOST: Okay, in terms of workers' rights, the ACTU has been pushing for basically workers to have a bigger say in how AI is rolled out in workplaces. Is that going to be in the guidelines? 

AYRES: Well, we're certainly, as I indicated, the standards will, will apply to large data centres. There are all sorts of questions about the adoption of new technology in Australian workplaces. Artificial intelligence technology that of course will have strongest support in workplaces if unions and workers are involved in the discussion. We've got a really strong industrial relations framework in Australia that facilitates that. 

HOST: But these laws are just about data centres being rolled out across the country? 

AYRES: We have an industrial relations framework that is absolutely robust. Amanda Rishworth's been working with business and the trade union movement on these questions. There are a range of questions that go to skills as well, and to training more broadly to our education system. This is not a different approach that's been announced today in terms of the responsibility of Ministers and agencies to be engaging with all of those issues. Squarely that is their responsibility, it will continue to be their responsibility and trade unions and business should be and are at the table engaging on these questions. 

HOST: You're saying that's a separate process. This isn't a catch-all broad-based piece of legislation. This is about the rollout of data centres? 

AYRES: And it's an Office of Artificial Intelligence located in the Prime Minister's office that will be all about making sure that we bring these issues together across the Commonwealth Government, but also with our partners in the states and territories to make sure that we're taking an Australian approach. As the Prime Minister said today, it's no good if we've got a collection of states and councils and individual companies trying to do their best to veto them. We've got to do it all together. 

HOST: Will communities have a right to veto them? 

AYRES: Well, I think the Prime Minister was very clear today. We want these data centres in the right place, you know, that is in the right locations. I was in the Hunter Valley yesterday in the Upper Hunter, where there's considerable interest from local councils in securing large scale data centre investments to underwrite new electricity generation and transmission and support industrial development, including blue collar industrial development co-located with data centre investment. So, we want to make sure these data centres are in the right place, that we're grabbing the right capabilities for Australia, including AI training, which is strategically significant.  

HOST: So communities will be able to say, no, we think we're the wrong place. 

AYRES: Well, the PM was clear about wanting to make sure that they are in the right place. We want to see the states embed these principles in their approval processes. There's a lot of focus, of course, on electricity issues as well, making sure that data centre developers are underwriting additional electricity generation and transmission so they're a net positive for the electricity system as we roll out a new and modern electricity system for Australia. 

HOST: Well, on that I have to ask – the Queensland Government's already said, you know, they're not just going to sign up to this and they're worried about an increase in electricity prices as a result.  

AYRES: Well, I want to be respectful of the process that Chris Bowen has been leading with the Energy Ministers and as the PM indicated, he'll be at the National Cabinet next month on all of this, on the AI Standards. But there is a national interest question here, and that goes to our future economic resilience, making sure that we're strengthening Australia as part of this approach, we're building a stronger and fairer future economy. And that does mean we want everybody at the table making sure that Australia's approach is the strongest possible approach.