Interview with Laura Jayes, AM Agenda

LAURA JAYES, HOST: Let's go live to the Industry and Innovation Minister, Tim Ayres. Tim, great to see you. South Australia has decided that AI has such profound social and economic consequences and potential disruption, that it needs a Royal commission. Does the country need one?

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: Well, we are as the Albanese Government, getting on with the job of delivering an Artificial Intelligence and critical technology strategy that is in Australia's national interest. It means that where there's artificial intelligence investment, particularly in data centres, that it happens in the right places, that it comes with its own electricity generation, that is paying for additional electricity generation and transmission, delivers on water security and brings local compute capabilities for benefits for local small and medium enterprises, startups in our research and development sector. We are squarely focused on meeting that challenge. The Australian Government's approach is world leading on Artificial Intelligence. We'll watch carefully of course, the South Australian Royal Commission, and we're engaging very closely with the Joint Select Committee that we've established in the Parliament, to make sure that the Parliament as a whole is engaged as we approach this legislation, that will set up world-leading Artificial Intelligence mandatory standards.

HOST: Ok, so is it a waste of time, or is it going to be outdated?

AYRES: No, no, no. Look, I welcome every effort to elevate these issues and to encourage debate and discussion about this technology. It's a general-purpose technology that's going to change our competitive advantage, is important for our economy and productivity, but it'll be foundationally important for future economic and strategic resilience for every nation on Earth. And Australia is not immune from that. We have real advantages in Artificial Intelligence and quantum too. I'm here at Silicon Quantum Computing, one of Australia's flagship quantum computing capabilities. That critical technology, along with artificial intelligence, is absolutely crucial to establish our Future Made in Australia, to build Australian sovereignty and capability in technological terms, and to make sure that we're making Australia stronger for future generations.

HOST:  Okay, let's move on. I want to talk about Bell Bay. $200 million of taxpayer funds went to bail out, or prop up Bell Bay yesterday. It's because energy is so expensive it's no longer commercially viable on its own. Why is this a good investment for taxpayers, Tim?

AYRES: Well, this is 550 jobs, 1,000 indirect jobs in Northern Tasmania. That is important. It's a smart deal, shared between the Albanese Government and the Tasmanian Government, equal basis, to make sure that these facilities continue to operate well into the 2030s efficiently. On the mainland, we have reached deals in Tomago, and at the Boyne Smelter Limited that have been all about investing in new electricity generation and transmission capability. So building the network– 

HOST: Sorry to interrupt there. So, did Rio have to commit to these 550 jobs. 

AYRES: Oh yeah. This is all about securing that facility. 

HOST: So they’re not allowed to sack anyone? It’s part of the condition?

AYRES: Well, there is minimum guaranteed employment, that goes through the whole package. 

HOST: So what’s the minimum?

AYRES: Well, the minimum has different numbers in different years, but it is all about sustaining their capability – 

HOST: So, it’s not going to stay at that 550 level?

AYRES: It'll be very close to that.

HOST: What is the commitment from Rio though? Because $200 million – I mean I'm not good at maths, but that's about $350,000 an employee?

AYRES: Well, it's a thousand indirect jobs. It's the 500 or so jobs, at the facility? 

HOST: Sure, I get that. But what is the actual commitment from Rio? On the proviso that they get this money? Are they allowed to turn around tomorrow and sack anyone?

AYRES: Well, of course they have to manage the business, Laura. The key thing here is we're about securing industrial capability for Australia to make Australia stronger. 

HOST: Yeah, I get that. But what’s the minimum employment standard then?

AYRES: Well, let me answer the question. There is a minimum standard. It hovers around the 500 mark. There's more than 500 people there. Those jobs are guaranteed. But the company's got to manage. The key thing here is, managing the capability, securing the investment so we have the most efficient production here in Australia. On the mainland, that comes too with investment in our electricity system. Now you can't turn around an electricity system in 5 days, or 5 months, or 5 years. It was neglected for a decade, capacity exiting the system. And a moribund, clapped out, coal-fired power fleet that largely, despite the efforts of all of the staff, the top-shelf engineering staff engaged at each of these facilities, is making our electricity more expensive –

HOST: Well, hydro’s not cheap is it –

AYRES: So securing electricity as a future competitive advantage and gas, reserving Australia's gas for Australian industry. These 2 foundational Future Made in Australia objectives. Lower cost electricity over time as we rebuild. It's a tough process, rebuild the electricity network and reserving Australian gas for Australian industry. They are key parts of our Future Made in Australia plan. Aluminium, as has been pointed out, is basically solid electricity. They are huge electricity users. We've backed them in, to go right to the heart of their competitive challenge. And it's secured. Our interventions over the course of the last 18 months, since we were elected, have secured tens of thousands of good jobs in regional communities. And we are unapologetically pro-industry and pro-manufacturing.

HOST: Ok, I've got two quick questions on some other issues. The ATO, after this credit card surcharge ban, has said, they're not going to allow any businesses to pay by credit card. So the ATO won't absorb these costs. But this Government is expecting every other small business to do it around the country. How is that fair?

AYRES: Well, as I understand this set of issues, there was an effort from the ATO to engage with the credit card companies who are charging the taxpayer, every Australian taxpayer, an unacceptably high surcharge. Profiteering off Australians paying their taxes to the ATO through their credit cards.

HOST: So small businesses are profiteering because they're paying their debts with a credit card?

AYRES: No, no, no. The credit card companies are charging too much. And that is a charge ultimately on the taxpayers – because the ATO has to pay it. It's a charge on Australian taxpayers. It's not the right thing to do. I understand that there's about 2.4 per cent, around the mid 2 per cents in any case, if I just got the figure a decimal point or two wrong, of payments are made by credit cards. So, a very small amount of payments, 60 per cent of those, overwhelmingly, are made by large organisations. There are alternative ways of paying and the ATO will work through that with their customers and their stakeholders.

HOST:  I can tell you small business isn't happy. I reckon this is a slow burn for you. But one final question on what the RBA said yesterday. Your Government encouraged people to get into their first home buy with a 5 per cent deposit scheme. House prices are now falling. The RBA specifically said yesterday, that those buyers are now more likely to be in negative equity. Do you accept that the Government increased their exposure and their risk?

AYRES: Well, what people seem to be overlooking in this argument is that there are hundreds of thousands of Australians who now have a home.

HOST:  Doesn't matter if they're in negative equity, so their home isn't now worth what they paid for it?

AYRES: Well, what the evidence shows is that there are less Australians in that program with negative equity than there have been before. I mean, these are hard-working Australians, don't count them out. They are hard-working Australians who've got a home because of the 5 per cent deposit scheme. Many of them are paying more. You know, they are taking prudent steps, they are paying their bills, they're working hard as families to pay their mortgages, they've got a home because of the scheme and that is a good thing. That is a good thing. And I've seen this argument from the Liberals and Nationals who want to pour scorn on any effort. They don't have any good ideas themselves, but they want to pour scorn on any effort we are all about supply in the housing market. 5 per cent deposit scheme giving young Aussies a chance as families to buy homes and also, changes that we've made in the taxation system, so that the scales aren't permanently tilted against the interests of young Australians who are fighting hard to get a home. We're on the side of first home buyers and Australians getting a home, and we're going to keep working away at that challenge. Nothing simple, nothing straightforward it all involves hard work, all involves Australians working together and we’re going to keep at it.

HOST: Tim, thank you. Happy grand final weekend. We will catch you soon.

AYRES: Thanks, Laura. 

ENDS.