STEVE AUSTIN, HOST: A short while ago I spoke with the federal Minister for Industry and Innovation, the Minister for Science, Tim Ayres, and asked him what he would reveal about the deal that the federal government and the state government have offered Glencore.

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: Well, I’m not going to talk about the details of the discussions, Steve, of course. And the reason for that, of course, is that the discussions are ongoing and it’s in the best interests for this issue, for security for this important community, that we keep a tight hold and are respectful of the process here. But I can confirm the Commonwealth, Queensland and Glencore continue to be engaged in very close discussions about the future of this facility. It’s absolutely in the Queensland interest, absolutely in the interests of Australia and in the interests of the copper industry itself that this facility continues to operate in Mount Isa delivering a service for not just Glencore’s copper assets but the copper assets of junior miners right across the region.

AUSTIN: Queensland Premier David Crisafulli told state parliament yesterday that at least the Queensland offer has been on the table for some time, and he said the federal government have now got to a position that they also have an offer on the table. Can you give me any detail about as to why – has, you know, your process changed at all? Queensland’s state government offer has been there for some time. It doesn’t sound like theirs has changed. Has yours changed after negotiating for some months now?

AYRES: Well, the positions evolve over time. What I can tell you is that from the moment that I was appointed, you know, one of the first issues that I’ve been briefed on and engaged in very closely with Queensland has been the future of this facility. As you know, there’s a series of smelter facilities around the country that are experiencing, you know, challenging global market conditions driven by market concentration and subsidies and global trade imbalances. We are very focused on all of those facilities but, of course, this Glencore facility has been upfront. I’ve been working very closely with the Premier and the Mining Minister Dale Last on these questions.

AUSTIN: The Premier says there’s not a cigarette paper of difference between the state and federal governments. Do you agree?

AYRES: Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. I really welcome the cooperation and the disciplined approach that both the Commonwealth and Queensland have taken together because that’s in the interests of Queenslanders, that’s in the Australian interest. And we’ll continue to do that over coming days and weeks because, you know, these issues of industrial capability are far too important for political differences to get in the way. We’re focused on the Australian interest and the Queensland interest.

AUSTIN: The spokesperson for the company, Cass McCarthy told me this recently:

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CASSANDRA MCCARTHY: If you don’t have a smelter or a refinery, Australia permanently loses part of its critical minerals processing capacity.

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AUSTIN: Do you agree with that assessment, Tim Ayres?

AYRES: Yeah, well, there’s only two copper smelters in Australia – BHP’s Olympic Dam facility and this facility in North West Queensland. It’s important for a series of reasons. Of course, it’s important economically and socially to that region. It’s hard to imagine Mount Isa without that facility. Glencore’s done very well out of that facility and its other assets around Australia. This is a tough time for this business. I agree with what the Premier and the Prime Minister have said – all of us, including Glencore, have a responsibility to stay the course during the hard times as well as the good times. It’s also important from a regional perspective not just for processing Glencore’s ore but also the ore of the other miners who are in the region.

AUSTIN: Yes.

AYRES: It’s effectively a common-user facility for the whole region.

AUSTIN: Yes.

AYRES: But we have a vision for the future, for the region –

AUSTIN: So, what are you hoping Glencore will do, then? Because the state has made an offer. The federal government made an offer and you’re on the same page. And basically, both of you seem to be saying, well, it’s all up to Glencore. What are you hoping Glencore will do, because the smelter is due to close any day now?

AYRES: Well, the principle is everybody makes a commitment here.

AUSTIN: So, what are you hoping Glencore will do, Minister?

AYRES: Well, Glencore should make, as part of these discussions, a long-term commitment to the viability and sustainability of this facility. That is the objective of the discussions. It’s not just about the next year or the year after that; we’re focused on the long-term sustainability of this facility in the national interest, and I want to see a commitment from everybody involved. And, of course, what the asset’s owner does is absolutely critical for the future.

AUSTIN: The company itself has highlighted the extraordinarily high cost of energy being a major impediment for them.

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CASSANDRA MCCARTHY: Roughly the cost of energy for our copper smelter, so you take our copper smelter in Mount Isa and the refinery in Townsville, of our production costs energy and power is around 23 per cent. If you compare our costs of production to, say, China, roughly our power costs or our energy costs are double what you would face in China.

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AUSTIN: That’s Cass McCarthy from Glencore again, Tim Ayres. So, Tim Ayres, energy costs have been rising under the Albanese government. Did you make any offer to them around that in the package that you and Queensland have offered Glencore?

AYRES: Well, as I indicated before, the details of the discussions of course are in the room. That’s how we’ll deliver the best outcome here. As I said, the outcome is uncertain. But we are very focused on delivering the best outcome possible. Energy costs, of course, are part of the equation here.

AUSTIN: And getting worse. And getting worse, Minister.

AYRES: Well, there has been – there have been long-term pressures on gas prices for east coast heavy industry for some time now. These are not issues that emerged just after the election of the Albanese government; they have been a long-term set of challenges for industry. We took steps in the last term on gas prices, applying caps to gas prices for households and for industrial users. As you will know and just to explain to your listeners, there is a review being led by Minister Bowen as we speak that will report soon on future arrangements in the gas industry, and we are very focused on the Australian interest here and the interests of heavy industrial gas users who do need affordable energy to be able to compete. It’s not the only issue bearing on this Glencore facility. Primarily there are challenges here in global market distortions and unfair market practices around the world, subsidies in other economies that are impacting on the competitiveness of this facility. That’s –

AUSTIN: So, can I interrupt there – are you talking about China? Because China collapsed the nickel industry. They’re doing – they’re working hard in the steel industry, and it looks like – I want to know if the federal government of Australia is going to let them collapse copper and have total control through vertical integration of the global copper market as well, Tim Ayres?

AYRES: Well, we’re working through these in a systematic way, in the national interest in areas of strategic metals like copper, which are important. You know, they are important minerals. They are important metals. They are critical for the future global industrial economy, and Australia has a future competitive advantage here – enormous resources of copper and all of the other critical and strategic metals. That’s what the Future Made in Australia plan is all about – is securing Australia’s advantage in mineral resources and bringing production onshore.

There are challenges in some of these markets right now, and that’s why we’re at the table with Glencore and the Queensland government –

AUSTIN: Alright.

AYRES: - to try and develop a solution that’s in the Australian national interest and in the interests of this community. But, as I say, the outcome is uncertain. If it was easy, it would have been done a long time ago. These are complex and difficult negotiations.

AUSTIN: Yes.

AYRES: I’m pleased that everybody is at the table engaging in the full-throated way. We’re going to keep on keeping on in the national interest.

AUSTIN: Time has run out. Pre the federal election Australia noted that the federal government basically rescued the very ageing and decrepit Whyalla steelworks. Why isn’t that on the table for the apparently vital and unique Glencore copper smelter, which looks after a whole lot of other companies in the area as well, Minister Ayres?

AYRES: Well, I don’t know whether your listening area extends to South Australia, but I wouldn’t describe it in the terms that you have. It’s an important steel facility with a long history and enormous capability and a recent history in that facility where the previous owner had really let that community and that industry down.

AUSTIN: So, you did that for the electorate. So why not do the same thing for the electorate in North Queensland?

AYRES: Yeah, the South Australian government and the Commonwealth government worked very closely in the national interest on that issue. Each of these facilities has their own importance. Mount Isa is an important facility. The smelter is an important facility servicing an important sector of the economy –

AUSTIN: But not as important at Whyalla Steelworks?

AYRES: Well, we are working – as the Premier said and as I’ve said – hand in glove with Queensland in the interests of that community but also in the national interest, and we’re going to keep at the table. We’re going to keep working these issues through and we’re very, very focused on the future of that facility.

AUSTIN: Can you guarantee as Australia’s Minister for Industry and Science that Australia’s ability to mine and refine our own copper, which is integral to our renewables future, integral for the renewable energy transition, that we will still be able to do this, that China will not control the copper market? Can you guarantee that?

AYRES: Well, as I’ve indicated in our discussion, the outcome here is not certain. That’s why we’re at the table. That’s why the Queensland government and the Commonwealth government are working so closely together. We’re very invested in the outcome here. There are only two copper smelter facilities in Australia. These are important questions in the national interest. That’s why we’re engaged. That’s why we’re going to keep the focus. And we’re just going to keep at it, Steve.

AUSTIN: Minister, thanks very much for your time.

AYRES: Thanks, Steve.

AUSTIN: Minister Tim Ayres, Industry Minister, whom I spoke with a short while ago.