SALLY SARA, HOST: Sally Sara with you on Breakfast. Artificial intelligence should serve Australians, not the other way around. That's the message from the Federal Government today as it launches its National AI plan, describing it as a comprehensive roadmap to unlock the full potential of the technology for all Australians. Tim Ayres is the Minister for Industry, Innovation and Science, and joins me now. Minister, welcome back to Radio National Breakfast.

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: G'day Sally, good morning to your listeners, it's good to be on the show.

SARA: Well, what does this plan entail in a practical sense?

AYRES: It offers a clear framework for Australians and for industry. It's all about capturing the economic opportunity here in Australia, in productivity terms, in investment terms, but also for the things that artificial intelligence can do for us, speeding up our research and development process for drug design, composite material design. That's in our national interest to solve big national challenges.

It's about making sure that we spread the benefits amongst workplaces, not just in the centre of our cities, but in our suburbs and our regions. And importantly, it's about keeping Australians safe, making sure that we're managing and dealing with the risks here.

SARA: Where is Australia placed globally to attract investment in AI?

AYRES: Australia is an extraordinary place for investment. We have enormous land mass in terms of digital infrastructure for a start, with proximity to the fastest growing markets in human history in Southeast Asia and the broader Indo-Pacific. We've got secure governance, and of course, our Five Eyes security relationships with our partners mean that, whether it's data centres, broader digital infrastructure, the tech sector, we have got real confidence about data security and the broader security of this infrastructure. So we are a terrific place to invest. I want to make sure, the Albanese Government wants to make sure, that we capture that opportunity.

Now, if we sit sort of flat-footed, then that opportunity will pass us by. I'm determined to secure that for Australia, to make sure that we grow the tech sector, so that we're growing Australian capability, we're not just a taker of overseas technology, we're making the technology here, we're building our weight in global supply chains and that we're sharing the benefits across Australia for everyone.

SARA: You want to position Australia as a leading destination for data centre investment. These centres aren’t big employers, but we know that they can draw significant energy from the grid and require a lot of water. What's in it for Australians?

AYRES: Well, you're right; they're not big employers, but they do give Australia a stake in this system, and I'm determined to make sure that we deliver them in a way that builds out, that supports and underwrites the building of our electricity network, and also make sure that there's computational capability. The jargon in the tech sector is "compute" available for Australian researchers, Australian companies as part of the contribution of these data centres here in Australia.

We'll be working with the states and territories now to make sure that there's clear frameworks, and we'll be back early next year with more work, 'cause that requires, you know, working it through with the states to make sure that there's clear frameworks for approaching those energy and those water challenges.

SARA: But one of your action steps is developing principles around data centres. What will they look like?

AYRES: Well, that will go to exactly those issues that we just discussed. I'm making sure that data centres, when they come, are making a net contribution to energy security, part of building up, underwriting electricity generation and transmission. The states will have views about how that connectivity works, and we'll work that through with them.

Water security, which in some of these data centres is an issue, there are improvements in efficiency here that are seeing less water usage. So, we'll work those issues through with the states and territories and make sure that we deliver an outcome here that's in Australia's national interest, but as I said, I'm also keen to make sure that we’re securing opportunities for the Australian tech sector here.

SARA: On the jobs front, New South Wales is moving towards legislation that gives unions the ability to scrutinise and veto companies' use of AI. Do you support those kinds of measures?

AYRES: We're going to get the best outcome here if we work together. Trade unions have a really important role to play here. Businesses, trade unions, government, workers and firms, all working together means more transparency, more engagement, more consultation, more collaboration, that’s going to deliver the best result.

I was a trade union official in the metal industry and the manufacturing sector before I came into Parliament. I saw waves of new technology – robotics, automation, digital design – overtaking Australian blue-collar workplaces, and I know the best approach here is when firms and workers and unions are open with each other, workers engaged with their trade unions, getting the best advice possible and the best support, cooperative relationships –

SARA: So, to bring you back to the question, do you support those kinds of measures where unions could veto?

AYRES: Oh, well, we'll work those through, and Amanda Rishworth at the Commonwealth level is very engaged with ACTU and the unions more broadly. New South Wales will adopt its own framework.

The key point for me is collaboration, Australians working together, not setting up a sort of hostile relationship here. This is in our interests; it's going to improve work. The Jobs and Skills Australia assessment of this demonstrates that for most Australians, this will mean changing their work, and for many Australians, it will mean improving their work, access to new ways of work, and Australians are already adopting the technology at work and at home. We're going to see that pick up over time.

SARA: Minister, you've been in discussions about underwriting energy contracts via Snowy Hydro to keep the Tomago Smelter going. What update do you have on those negotiations?

AYRES: Well, I think it's the same update that I gave you the last time we spoke, Sally. We are working very diligently and very hard with the owners of the Tomago facility, with the energy sector, to try and deliver the best outcome possible here.

It is still an uncertain outcome, and it won't do delivering that outcome any good by going through the details outside of those commercial in confidence discussions. But we are absolutely committed to working with the owners there to secure the future of that facility.

SARA: If Transgrid can't get synchronous condensers online fast enough, will the life span of Eraring need to be extended, and is that just a matter for New South Wales, or is there a role for the Federal Government in that?

AYRES: Well, what it does do is demonstrate that opposing the rollout of renewables and storage and gas and transmission infrastructure like that piece of infrastructure that you just referred to, is harming Australians. That impulse from the Coalition did nothing over the decade leading up to 2022, so generation fell away, transmission fell away, nothing got built, 24 out of 28 coal-fired power stations announced or brought forward their closure, and nothing came in to replace it.

Now this sort of wrecking impulse that's overtaken the Liberals and Nationals, creating uncertainty around the sector, when they do that wrecking, Australians hurt, and in this case, it's blue-collar jobs, regional jobs in the –

SARA: So, is there a role for the Federal Government in that?

AYRES: Well, the main thing here is for us all to work together; each of us, the states, the Commonwealth have got different responsibilities here. But as in this Tomago situation, or any of the other smelters around the country, we get good outcomes when we've got the states and the Commonwealth and the owners on the same page.

SARA: On a final issue, the Briggs Report into appointments to government boards has found that boards have frequently been used to appoint friends, reward loyalty or promote priorities. The report recommends changes to recruitment practices. Will the government accept the recommendations of the report and put in place new recruitment processes and longer periods for former politicians and former staffers to be barred from taking up roles?

AYRES: Well, Katy Gallagher will be outlining the government's approach over the course of the day. Under the previous government, of course, the Briggs Report is sharply critical of what happened. I mean, you look at the Administrative Appeals Tribunal that we've had to replace entirely, essentially – debauched with friends and associates, all being appointed –

SARA: This is criticism of the system overall; this also applies to the government of which you're a part. Will the government take into account these recommendations, implement them?

AYRES: Well, the captain of the ship makes a difference, and under the previous government, you know, it just got driven into the rocks, if I can mangle the metaphor, Sally. We've made improvements already –

SARA: So, Labor hasn't had jobs for mates as well?

AYRES: No, no, no. We have made appointments in the national interest. Of course, we're focused on the purpose of the organisations and appointments that we make. We're shaping our approach to these issues, of course, but these are good appointments that have been made in the national interest; they've all been made following the proper processes.

SARA: Tim Ayres, we'll need to leave it there. Thank you for your time.

AYRES: Thanks, Sally.

SARA: Tim Ayres is the Minister for Industry and Innovation.