PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: How Australia deals with the rapid growth of data centres is quickly becoming one of the biggest policy and political questions facing governments. Today the Government has announced it will oblige tech companies to wind down power use at peak times to guard against blackouts or strain on the grid that also can lead to price rises. 

Tim Ayres is the Industry and Science Minister and joins us this afternoon. Welcome to the program, Minister. 

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: Patricia, g'day. 

HOST: The Government's Data Centre Expectations have been outlined today. You're going to tell data centre developers to bring your own supply, cover your own grid connection costs and be demand flexible, as Australia's “triple lock” is the language that's being used against pressures on energy costs. Will it be legally enforced, will it involve legislation to force them to do this? 

AYRES: Well more than that, Patricia, to deliver on water security, to make sure that there is a net benefit for our research and development community. This is Australia, being very clear. Data Centre Expectations, launched a few months ago – Assistant Minister Andrew Charlton's had a bit more to say about them over the last 24 hours – sending a very clear signal to the investment community, to data centre developers, that while these investments are very important for Australia's economic resilience, and for our onshore technical capability, they're going to happen here onshore on Australia's terms. 

Now much as you say, in terms of the compulsion here, I've been very encouraged by the way that the data centre and technology companies have been engaging with the Government. Some of them signing off on Memoranda of Understanding; some of them already demonstrating that they are investing in new energy generation and paying transmission costs. 

But of course, the rubber hits the road in the State approval processes. There's already been a process led by Minister Chris Bowen with the State Energy and Electricity Ministers. There's a work program; they'll be meeting again in July to make sure that we operationalise these Data Centre Expectations in the States' approval processes. 

HOST: Okay, so you're saying it will be enforced at a State level? 

AYRES: Well, it's all of our job. It's all of our job. I'm not abrogating responsibility here. This is the Commonwealth Government sending a very clear message that if you want to proceed with government support in Australia, these are the expectations that you must meet. 

HOST: And how will they be enforceable though, Minister? That's the issue that I don't think is clear. Will it involve legislation or just goodwill? 

AYRES: Well it's certainly not just a question of goodwill, but we are seeing the industry racing to meet the Expectations because they want and need the Government's support. There's a lot of work to do here to operationalise these with the States. 

The States are, by and large, rising to that challenge because they don't want to see a race to the bottom on electricity standards or water standards, and they want to capture the benefits in compute services for research and development in particular, but also in terms of good local jobs for their communities and their States. 

This is a whole of Australia effort, and we're not going to make the mistake of some of the overseas jurisdictions that have seen data centre developments competing for scarce electricity resources, for example, putting up electricity prices. This is the Albanese Government sending a clear message. If you want to invest here, invest in electricity and add to the electricity grid.  

HOST: But just to be clear, again, crystal clear, you don't think it needs any legislation at a Commonwealth level? 

AYRES: Well, I don't see that legislation would add real compulsion here. Like that's – it is the approval processes that determine whether or not an individual project proceeds. Just the same as for a coal mine or a factory or a shopping centre. It's no different. 

HOST: Okay. 

AYRES: We are adding additional layers of expectations that we wouldn't apply to, for example, an abattoir in a country town, big water users, or for a shopping centre. We're saying these are special, and they require an additional layer of investment in the electricity system. 

And I can tell you that overwhelmingly the proponents of these understand. They want to come to Australia because we've got big competitive advantages here. 

HOST: Okay. 

AYRES: You know, future energy competitive advantage and it's in our interest to secure – 

HOST: I get all that. 

AYRES: – as much of this as possible. 

HOST: Now, they're energy guzzlers, we know that, these data centres. Under the rules announced today they'll be forced to wind down power use at peak times to deal with blackouts, strains, prices too. How will you force them? 

AYRES: Well, they have to form electricity agreements and underwrite power purchasing agreements. This is a very common feature of industrial electricity agreements now. The Boyne and Tomago aluminium smelters, who both use about 10 per cent of Queensland and New South Wales's electricity respectively, have those requirements imposed upon them now, and they are big contributors in terms of grid stability. 

It's not actually a very controversial idea to impose that more broadly for big electricity users. Underwrite electricity generation, pay for the transmission costs, lower costs for Australians and for Australian business, but also contribute to grid stability. That is a good idea. 

We're leading with that first before the big wave of data centre investment hits so that it improves lives for Australians, not doing what's happened in some of our partner and competitor jurisdictions where it's all happened in a very untidy way and there haven't been great outcomes for communities. 

HOST: And people are cranky in some of those communities. Quick questions for you. The Prime Minister has raised doubt in relation to One Nation's fundraising, over $2 million they say now. Will you also reveal your donations that you called for the other night to fight One Nation? 

AYRES: That I called for? 

HOST: No, well the Labor Party. 

AYRES: Oh, yeah. I thought you were – 

HOST: I say ‘you’ as part of that tribe, sorry about that. 

AYRES: Of course, of course. You know, I want Australians to contribute in the fight for a better Australia. That's what the Labor Party's leading. We're leading the argument for change, whether it's in the property market – 

HOST: Sure. 

AYRES: – fixing the tax system. 

HOST: How much have you fundraised though, Minister? 

AYRES: For One Nation, like the real answer is One Nation, one fundraiser. Ms Rinehart, $2 million planes. 

HOST: You think she gave all this money in this fundraiser, is that what you're saying? 

AYRES: No, no, no, no, I'm sure they're raising funds, but the point is these guys pretend to be for the battlers and about small donations. Really? They are on the hook to one or two big billionaires whose interest they operate in. They vote with the Liberals on industrial relations and wages, drive wages down. They're never there for housing reform. They're always voting with the Liberals and Nationals, and their real fundraising base are billionaires, not battlers, and that's becoming increasingly clear. 

You can't get given a jet by a billionaire and pretend that you're for the battlers. I mean One Nation are really just another offshoot – 

HOST: But will you –

AYRES:  – we reveal all – 

HOST:  – also tell us what your fund raising has led to? I mean because the Prime Minister questioned Pauline Hanson's.  

AYRES: We reveal all of our donations in a very transparent way. Like we do it more than any other political party in the country. But we know about One Nation, it's not what they claim that they've raised in a kind of Internet fundraising exercise, it's all about billionaire fundraising for them, and they are not operating in the interests of ordinary Australians. 

There's never been a wage rise that they haven't opposed. Never been a social service that they [don’t] want to close down. There's always – whenever you put up in my area, like let's support Australian industry, they howl it down with the Liberals, they are not for regional communities, they are not for the outer suburbs. They are being pushed around by the billionaires who buy their aeroplanes to fly around the country. Like they are in luxury planes flying around the country paid for by billionaires. 

No other political party in Australia would get away with that. 

HOST: All right. Just quickly, it's not your portfolio but it's pretty serious, it's one of your biggest savings, well it's your biggest saving in the budget. Disability Ministers across the political divide, including Labor Disability Ministers, have united to say that your big changes to the National Disability Insurance Scheme undermine the original intent of Julia Gillard's landmark reforms. They say that you've stuffed it up and they don't support it. 

AYRES: Well we've got a big job to do here to reform the NDIS. A very clear pathway has been mapped out by Mark Butler and Jenny McAllister, announced in the budget by Jim Chalmers. And I just say to Australians, you know, this is a big job that the party who founded the NDIS, whose values have always been about providing a sustainable scheme, we need to get that scheme on to a sustainable footing so that future generations, future families, future disabled kids get on to the scheme in a sustainable way. 

You can trust the Labor Party with our values to bring, to bring – 

HOST: Well your own Labor ministers and the States are not trusting it. 

AYRES: But there's a role to play for the States here to provide services, to back that in. Of course, there is always an argument between the Commonwealth and the States about who's contributing what. 

HOST: There always is, it's true. But what they're saying – 

AYRES: This should be seen in that context. 

HOST: – is there's not been an agreement for like for like services. I mean do you take their rebuke seriously?  

AYRES: Well I'll leave the terms of discussing these with the States to my ministerial colleagues who have got responsibility for it. 

I just say this is a big job for Australia; we have a plan. It's a plan that Australians will support because it's about Australian values being brought to a really important social scheme that makes a big difference to the lives of Australian families, and you can be really confident that we'll bring the values that we brought to the foundation of the NDIS, to rescuing the NDIS and making sure it's sustainable for future generations. 

HOST: Minister, always good to have you on the show, thanks for coming on.