MARY GEARIN, HOST: Joining me now is Tim Ayres, Senator and Minister for Industry, Innovation and Science. Thank you so much for joining us, Tim.

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: G'day Mary. Thanks for having me on the show.

HOST: Tell me, what do you expect to happen at this meeting? Do you know?

AYRES: It's important to get the roles right here. My job as the Minister for Science is to work with the CSIRO to make sure that they are match fit and there is a capable CSIRO for the future. It's really important in Australia's interest. That's why the Government has, on top of the $1 billion or so a year that the Government spends on maintaining that capability and previous budget and MYEFO decisions that we've made to provide additional support we provided in this year's Budget north of $380 million.

HOST: $387.4 million. I believe.

AYRES: But that is so that there is a long term, you know, a clear way through the forwards so that we're not returning to these sustainment questions every year. That's the measure of our commitment.

HOST: Yeah, obviously that's a big commitment. $387 million just on top of, as you say, everything else. But at the same time, you've got CSIRO sacking potentially 100 scientists on top of 818 support staff last year. So, are you disappointed that that's their response?

AYRES: No, look, the decisions about what programs continue, what programs finish. Like that is in any science organisation or university - programs begin and programs end. The CSIRO has to make decisions. It is a matter for the board and management of the CSIRO how they deliver this.

HOST: Are you happy with their priorities?

AYRES: Well, I want to see the CSIRO delivering on the national science priorities in a modern and contemporary way. They've gone through a very thorough process, the first really thorough process for 15 years of working on those priorities, consulting with staff, consulting with their union –

HOST: Now that the union's very disappointed in the cuts, obviously, Minister, can I just –

AYRES: And that doesn't mean that these aren't, you know, these are very tough discussions and I don't want to, but just being cautious about commenting on the specifics of it, Mary, because, today and over the course of the rest of this week staff are being engaged by the CSIRO about those –

HOST: Minister, can I just put to you though, the comments that have already been made by the people who are affected. We heard yesterday from a couple of researchers who were working with the CSIRO and supporting them in climate modelling. A small specialist team that work on modelling our safety and our security under various scenarios. They're saying that with there are 5 of that, 15 have been told that their jobs may likely be affected. So, Andy Hogg is a professor of ocean and climate modelling. He's the director of Access NRI that actually does the modelling and supports CSIRO to make it. Here's what he had to say about whether or not that team could bear that cut.

ANDY HOGG, DIRECTOR OF ACCESS NRI: I think we're getting subcritical on the real core capability that CSIRO needs to be able to perform that work.

HOST: Subcritical on. Yeah. That means that 5 out of 15 is just simply too much in your view?

HOGG: Yeah, I think 15 is probably too small already. But you take away five of those and it really does affect our capacity to make these future projections and to understand what future climate we need to adapt to in Australia.

HOST: And another researcher also told us, Minister, that that will endanger our reputation on the world stage. Are you happy with that sort of cut?

AYRES: Well, what I want to see is the CSIRO delivering on those science priorities that matter for –

HOST: Why doesn't climate modelling matter as a priority?

AYRES: Well, certainly when you look at the priorities for the CSIRO addressing the pressing problem of climate change with a focus on adaptation and resilience –

HOST: But not modelling?

AYRES: Looking at the big national challenges here of deploying our solar and wind into critical metals production –

HOST: But not modelling?

AYRES: Australian opportunity agriculture, all of those questions.

Now, in terms of the approach to modelling, I'll let the CSIRO answer that question itself. I just say that they have to make decisions about delivering on making sure that the CSIRO - our core national applied science and industrial research organisation - is delivering on solving the big national challenges for Australia.

HOST: Which agency does have responsibility for ensuring the high-quality climate projections, is it not the CSIRO?

AYRES: Well, the CSIRO has an important role to play here, and of course it's not the only part of Government that's engaged with work on climate change. The Climate Change Authority, the Department of Environment, Climate Change and Water, do they -

HOST: Do what the CSIRO has been doing?

AYRES: Well, I just don't want to go into the specifics of this question because the staff are being consulted today.

HOST: It also though goes to Australia's capacity to operate in these times as well.

AYRES: Well, that's why we have provided additional budget support to the CSIRO to make sure that they can be the very best Australian science organisation that we need for our future. Like that way that Australia is going to work its way through these big national challenges, whether it's on the environment and climate change side, whether it's our big energy challenges, whether it's mustering our response on artificial intelligence and quantum physics, which is in our interest, health, disease preparedness –

HOST: It’s got a very large suite and critical suite of responsibilities there. But just going to this point that the researchers have told us, will you be expecting that the CSIRO continues to take on these high-quality climate projections?

AYRES: Well, I want to see them bringing capability, the whole area of climate change –

HOST: That doesn't really answer the question, Minister.

AYRES: And agriculture. Well, wait and see what the outcome is here. I want to respect the process that is going on here and respect the fact that CSIRO’s directly engaging with staff and their union, and has been for some months around these challenges and understand that this is, you know, that all of these people, including people who are engaged in research programs that are not continuing, these are excellent scientists that are doing a powerful job for Australia where they're working at the CSIRO or our other national science institutions that what they are really valued. It is tough, you know, that is always a tough set of circumstances. But for the Government's part, our job here is providing leadership for the CSIRO and making sure that they have got the budget envelope that puts them on a sustainable pathway and that we're working with them in all sorts of ways to make sure that they are match fit, and fit for purpose for what is a very challenging set of circumstances for Australia. Part of which our response to climate change, energy challenges, all of the long list that I went through with you before. Part of it is publicly funded science working with industry to solve big national challenges.

HOST: You're listening to Tim Ayres, who's Minister for Industry, Innovation and Science. Also in the Budget were the details that are the cutting of the Australia's Economic Accelerator program. That's the one that was established a few years ago that “supports the translation of research into real world economic and social benefits”. It's been cut in order to, among other things, move money into the CSIRO. And there are plenty of researchers who are saying this is just cutting off our nose to spite our face. What would you have to say to them?

AYRES: Yeah, there are a range of programs that work in this area, including programs in my own portfolio. It is a Budget where we have had to make tough choices, where the Albanese Government has had to make choices, to make sure that we've got a sound Budget that delivers for the future. Some programs have not continued, and that is one of them. But we are, as a Government, whether it's our National Reconstruction Fund, investing in Australian science and research commercialised here in Australia. Our other programs, particularly in my portfolio, ARENA, a range of these. A range of these vehicles.

HOST: There's a lot on your plate, but part of the criticism from the people who are obviously going to suffer from that decision is that you can't talk about building a Future Made in Australia, they say, while you actually are cutting a research commercialisation program at that scale.

AYRES: Well, this is a Budget that has really delivered for Australian research and development and commercialisation and innovation –

HOST: By cutting the program?

AYRES: Yeah. I mean, some programs get smaller, some programs get cut. There are new, there are new opportunities here. The research and development tax incentive, for example, has been substantially modified to mean that we have more higher impact private research. Our CRC programs continue providing support for industry partnerships that go to exactly those kind of challenges. You know, making sure that we've got the new science that we can commercialise here in Australia. We're continuing with that work as well in the agriculture sector, our National Reconstruction Fund, ARENA. All of these vehicles are at the cutting edge of the intersection between publicly funded science, privately funded research and development, and making sure that we are commercialising these inventions, this intellectual property, this science onshore here in Australia to create good jobs in outer suburbs and in our industrial regions. That's what that agenda is all about. And I understand, of course, that when a particular program closes, that's disappointing for the people who are engaged in it.

HOST: And particularly for people who've been trying to apply for these grants, you know, it's a waste of their time.

AYRES: Australian scientists and researchers are trying their guts out, are working hard and often work in an environment where there are competitive grants processes. And of course, it's disappointing when even though your program, you know, you're an excellent scientist or researcher, you've got an exciting program. Not all programs get funded. I mean, in the medical research area, which is a substantial area of public investment in Australian science and Australian research, that leads to new products and new jobs and new economic development. It's a competitive process that has been the way that it has always been, but it's a tough process. People often forget that there are, there are many more applications very tough than there are successful grants.

HOST: There are many competing priorities. Minister, really grateful for your time.

AYRES: Thanks, Mary. Good on you. Bye.

HOST: That was Senator Tim Ayres, Minister for Industry and Innovation, and Minister for Science.