LAURA JAYES, HOST: Well, Anthony Albanese is in New York. So is Donald Trump. That meeting that seemed to be confirmed by Trump yesterday - or last week - is today all of a sudden appears not going to happen.

Joining me live now is Industry and Innovation Minister Tim Ayres. Tim, great to see you. Great to have you back on the program. How do you spin this one?

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: G'day, Laura. Yes, it’s good to be back.

Well, we don't spin it at all. What you'll notice about this government, Laura, is we're all about the outcomes and delivery for Australia, not about headlines and whatever the preoccupations are of the - some of our friends in the press gallery. This is a very important series of meetings for the Prime Minister to attend in New York, the UN General Assembly and a series of engagements with firms and investors who are interested in investing in Australia's Future Made in Australia agenda. He is steadily progressing that work in the Australian national interest. There will be a meeting with President Trump when it happens, in due course. We're focused on outcomes for Australia.

JAYES: Is it, do you know something that we don't? That there is a meeting in the works or?

AYRES: Well, in due course, when it happens, it may happen over --

JAYES: I thought it was meant to happen this week, though.

AYRES: -- it will certainly happen at some - Well, there's been an enormous amount of speculation. Even I, who avoid the news most of the time, have managed to see some of this speculation. There's been plenty of speculation. But for us, we're focused on the job for Australia. We're not out there, too worried--

JAYES: But hang on Tim, can I just raise this because I do want to get to data centres because, you know, I'm obsessed with AI. But I mean, let's be real here. Trump seemed to confirm this next week when he had that tête-à-tête with that ABC journalist. And I'm meeting with your Prime Minister next week, now, you know, Anthony Albanese is going all the way to New York. We just see those light pictures of Trump landing in New York, and all of a sudden, Carolyn Levitt rattles off a list of world leaders that he's meeting with, and Australia wasn't on it. What should we think about that? Should we not --

AYRES: Well, we're, we're not hanging off --

JAYES: Are we just not a priority for Trump or are we, you know, really now on the B friendship list?

AYRES: Laura, we're not hanging off every development and every word and every utterance. I know that, you know, your team and other journalists there are paid to do that, you know, hanging off every word that happens. We're just focused on delivering in the Australian national interest. This has been an important leader's event at the United Nations, it's supplemented by -- 

JAYES: So, meeting Trump’s not a priority for Albanese either?

AYRES: -- Well, it's supplemented by things that are really going to matter in terms of investment in Australian manufacturing and Australian industry. That's the kind of practical, pragmatic thing that this government and this Prime Minister are focused on, making sure there is international investment and international interest in Australia's areas of future competitive advantage, because that leads to real good blue-collar jobs --

JAYES: I would have thought Trump would be the number one gatekeeper for exactly what you're talking about.

AYRES: Priority number one here is jobs, good blue-collar jobs in outer suburbs and industrial regions. That's what the Prime Minister is going to be working through. Those questions, of course, there's an important announcement in terms of Australia's approach to the Middle East and recognition of Palestine. There's a series of other events that the Prime Minister - that's what he's there for. And you know, there's been a very cordial series of telephone discussions with the President of the United States, there's innumerable meetings at official and Ministerial level, with the United States --

JAYES: Ok, well, let's talk about your portfolio.

AYRES: -- We're relaxed, Laura, about this --

JAYES: Alright, well, I'm glad you're relaxed. I'm just looking at the five most powerful Australian tech leaders in 2025, and you are on the list. You are at number four, Tim Ayres. So, we expect some answers today. So, what is the number one impediment for Australia being a leader in AI? Is it data centres? What is your plan? Would you accept higher emissions if it was a quid pro quo between AI and reducing emissions?

AYRES: Well, can I just take that in a few bits, Laura? So, the first part of that is Australia's strategy for artificial intelligence, our artificial intelligence capability plan will be released later this year. But what I can tell you is, of course, data centre capability and digital infrastructure, connectivity are a really important element of that. Not just because of the jobs and investment that creates, but because it gives Australia a stake in the global system. We are a good place for investment in data centres. We've got enormous amounts of space, which some of our partners don't have. We’ve got vast solar and wind resources. We're a Five Eyes country with strong governance and the rule of law. We're a very good place for global data centre investment, and you will have seen some of that come through. Of course, there are other questions more broadly across the economy about artificial intelligence adoption and use by individuals and firms to lift productivity and what it is that we can achieve with this new general-purpose technology in public health terms, in government services. You know, there's a range of extraordinary things that this technology can help, for example, with health diagnoses and treatment that are going to revolutionise patient care and the work of people involved in health care and the life sciences. There is enormous opportunity here.

In terms of your final question in that opening, of course, data centres require a significant amount of electricity. The requirement to build out our electricity system, and to modernise our electricity system and to build transmission so that electricity gets from where it is generated to the industrial end users, including data centres, is going to be fundamental to our future economic success, our economic resilience and our strategic position. And that's why Minister Bowen is so focused on that work of modernising our electricity system. It's not a zero-sum game, and we are going to need more and more electricity as we electrify our industrial processes, building new data centres, and that is a nation-building task. And you know, the Coalition and others ought to get out of the way. This is a nation-building task that Australia will be relying upon for our future. These questions fundamentally are now building and transmission questions, and we've got to get on with them.

JAYES: This is not firmly in your portfolio area, but you would be aware of it. That is TikTok and what's happening in America right now. Basically, America has moved to make sure that know American companies and American data is more secured. Would Australia want to make or is Australia thinking about making the same moves here when it comes to TikTok?

AYRES: Well, we've certainly shown a willingness as a government, I mean in terms of TikTok - I'll leave our position around the particular elements of our approach, that platform and other platforms, as you'd expect to the Communications Minister Anika Wells - but just say we've demonstrated a willingness to regulate in the public interest when it comes to some of the social media harms, outlawing these vile deepfake applications, regulating social media for under 16s. The PM, it's another one of the things that's on the PMs, you know, in his focus in these meetings in New York, talking to other world leaders about international cooperation around these questions. So that social media is there being used in the public interest rather than, you know, some of the harms that we see particularly for our kids. Laura.

JAYES: Yeah, well, well said. Exactly. It's all about the kids. Tim Ayres, it's great to talk to you.

AYRES: Yeah, good on you, Laura.