LAURA JAYES: Thank you. Joining me live now is the Industry and Innovation minister, Tim Ayres. Tim thanks so much for your time. So is this government up for some serious reform or not, or are we looking at, you know, some guard rails, some you know soft or any predetermined outcomes before getting all these people around that cabinet table next week? 

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: Well, it’s a serious discussion, Laura, that’s been led by the treasurer and the Prime Minister – with the private sector, with the investment sector, trade unions, our research sector – about the big structural challenges that we have to work our way through to address the productivity challenge, to drive economic resilience, to lift investment in the Australian economy. That’s what we’re setting about doing. The economic roundtables are an important opportunity to do just that. 

JAYES: Yeah.

AYRES: Government decision making, of course, is led by the cabinet, and that’s what you would expect, but we’re a government that’s not afraid to get out there. 

JAYES: Are you sure about that, Tim? Are you sure about that? There’s a lot of management going on around this and if you really were serious about getting productivity in the fast lane, not the slow lane, dealing with all those things that you talk about, there are some tough and perhaps unpopular decisions that need to be made, wouldn’t you agree? 

AYRES: Well, you know, that of course involves talking to people and listening, and building that approach on these questions. That’s what we’re setting about doing. I mean, the sort of flurry of interest in some preparatory documents just underlines – remember when Jim opened up this process. 

JAYES: Yeah.

AYRES: He said, you know, we’re not going to enter the rule in rule out game. If reform in Australia – the media, we all have a responsibility to play a constructive role here. There’s a preparatory document that’s made its way to one of the outlets. Big deal, big deal. We’re actually getting on with the job of engaging directly with the sectors that have got an interest in the national interest questions here. We’re going to get on with it. Nothing has been ruled in or ruled out. We’re just working our way through the process. We’re pretty relaxed about that and won’t be distracted by any of the things that don’t really matter. We’re actually focussed on the things that matter for Australia. 

JAYES: Okay. AI, big part of it. We see this happening before our very eyes. This is a revolution in the way we work and live. Do you admit that it is likely, like the Productivity Commission says, that jobs will be lost and that’s something the unions need to get their heads around because others will be created? 

AYRES: Just think about my background, Laura, in manufacturing for 25 years. I’ve seen waves of technological change, automation, robotics, the digital economy. This is another wave of change that will effect workplaces differently, differentially across the sector. 

JAYES: Do you think the unions get that, because they want to seem to hold on to jobs that might not, you know, be there when AI really kicks in to gear? 

AYRES: Do they? 

JAYES: Yeah, they do.

AYRES: What evidence is there for that?

JAYES: I do, look at the statements they’ve sent out about one of the big banks for example, replacing 45 jobs with AI in a call centre. 

AYRES: I listen to what –

JAYES: That’s a low-hanging fruit, right. 

AYRES: I listened to what Matt Comyn said about that, and I listened to what Sally McManus said about that, and I thought there was an extraordinary level of agreement, actually. My experience with this is while there’s a cartoon drawn by some of the differences – natural differences in outlook that there are around these questions, actually there’s a substantial set of views driven by the national purpose, whether it’s in the labour movement or the business community. 

JAYES: Yep.

AYRES: There’s a substantial amount of agreement and that’s what we need to build on, is a spirit of agreement, recognising the differences, encouraging people to work together to resolve those challenges. You know, we all want, whether you’re in the trade union movement or the business community or the government, we want Australians having more skills, workers having more confidence. We want job security and we want people to have skills and we want to see Australia seizing this opportunity to lift our productivity, to lift our competitiveness, to make sure that Australia is leaning in to the opportunity and having a stake in, whether it’s artificial intelligence or the digital economy more broadly. So, we are approaching this with confidence about the capacity of Australians to seize these opportunities. We will play our role. Whether it’s encouraging investment in digital infrastructure and AI data centres. Whether it’s in tech diffusion through the Australian economy, public sector and private sector, to improve performance and improve work at the same time. Or whether it’s in supporting our tech sector to grow and grab hold of these opportunities so that there’s Australian tech start-ups and Australian tech companies grabbing hold of this opportunity. We’re confident about the future in this area, recognise some of the challenges, but we’re not fainting every time there’s a newspaper headline about these kind of questions. We’re just getting on with it. 

JAYES: Well good to see that you’re embracing it, certainly taking that glass half full approach when it comes to AI. I appreciate that, Tim.

AYRES: I’m ever the optimist, Laura, you know me. I’m full of beans and cheerful about the future. But we’ve just got to be pragmatic about these questions. 

JAYES: Sure.

AYRES: And not set up Australians against each other.

JAYES: But who is that message to? Is it to me, or to some of these groups that might be around the table next week? 

AYRES: It’s for all of us.

JAYES: Right.

AYRES: And it’s an injunction for us too. We’ve got to work hard to bring us all together, to focus on what’s in the national interest. 

JAYES: Agree.

AYRES: It’s totally legitimate for people or organisations to come forward, representing the sectional interest that they represent, and we’re also asking for people to frame that in the context of the national interest, and I think the participants are. That’s what I see every time I talk to them privately or I listen to what they say publicly. It’s not universal agreement, there’s not universal agreement within the business sector itself about some of these. 

JAYES: True.

AYRES: And it shouldn’t be. There shouldn’t be. There should be constructive disagreement, but set a purpose about the national interest and –

JAYES: Yep.

AYRES: that’s where I come at these problems from. That’s where the PM and the Treasurer are, and we’re very confident about our approach to this. 

JAYES: All right. We’ll speak to you soon. Thanks so much for giving us your precious time, Minister.

AYRES: Good on you, Laura.