Interview with Tom Crowley, ABC Radio National, Breakfast

TOM CROWLEY, HOST: Thanks very much, Luke and Tim Ayres, welcome back to Radio National Breakfast.

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: Oh, thanks for having me on, Tom. If I may say, we're all a little sadder and a little poorer with the sad news about Dolly Parton overnight. For those of us who love country music, that is a very sad piece of news indeed.

HOST: Well said. Moving on to more mundane matters and data centres this National Cabinet meeting today, does the Government need to get Queensland and the Northern Territory on board here or will they be irrelevant if you're going to come over the top with federal legislation?

AYRES: The federal legislation that the Prime Minister outlined in that speech just a month or so ago is absolutely crucial to ensuring that we don't have a race to the bottom on artificial intelligence standards and on data centres on electricity, on water and all of those community benefits that we want to make sure the data centres land in the right places and that they serve a local and the community interest, as well as the national interest. But it's also important that there be a collaborative approach and I'm looking forward to seeing the outcome of the National Cabinet later on this morning.

HOST: So, important to get a collaborative approach. But the Government's view is that the federal legislation is ultimately what matters and that today's meeting, you know, it would be good to get agreement but not essential. Is that right?

AYRES: Well, it's absolutely crucial that we don't have a race to the bottom on, in particular electricity and water, but more broadly the data centre standards that the Prime Minister set out, that's not in the national interest. This is a big challenge and a big opportunity for Australia. If we lean back and miss the opportunity – that has negative consequences for our economy, our productivity and our security. If we lean in and get this right as one country with one approach rather than eight different approaches, then that offers the opportunity to make sure that artificial intelligence and data centres and AI training is harnessed here in the national interest in a coordinated and effective way that makes Australia stronger.

HOST: So, given that, is the Federal Government open to changing any of the rules or any of the wording around renewable energy, for instance, to get those two jurisdictions on board, or is this a take it or leave it proposition?

AYRES: Well, it's absolutely essential, as we rebuild and modernise our electricity system, that Australia doesn't go backwards in terms of our electricity system. That is a system that is based on solar and wind, backed by gas and backed by storage. That is the electricity system that we need to build to lower costs and make Australia more competitive and more resilient. That we don't take a backward step here. It's exactly the same as the approach that we've taken in Queensland around the Boyne Aluminium smelter, our second largest smelter, Queensland's largest user of electricity, industrial electricity. There's no difference between a big industrial electricity user and a data centre. That big industrial facility, joint intervention from Queensland and from the Australian Government will be powered by wind and solar, backed by batteries and gas, because that is the lowest cost, most efficient outcome, and it lowers costs for every Queensland household and every Queensland business.

HOST: If we do end up in a situation with clashing federal legislation and state legislation, for instance, in Queensland, this could end up being a constitutional dispute. Would a lengthy legal process undermine the Government's pitch to attract AI investment from abroad?

AYRES: Well I don't think that's very likely, Tom. The practical reality is that, particularly around gas, the idea that a data centre would be exclusively powered directly by gas, I mean, there will always be gas in the electricity mix, there needs to be. But gas turbines, there is a long waiting list for gas turbines. It's a five-year wait and these data centres want to get cracking before that. So, these AI Standards are all about making sure that Australia maximises the advantage, maximises the right kind of investment in the right places, and it delivers to support our ambitions to build a modern electricity system for Australia.

HOST: So, given that desire to get cracking, how quickly are you hoping to legislate this federal legislation on the data standards? And is it more likely, do you think, that you'll find support from the Greens or the Coalition as you try to do that.

AYRES: Well, the Office for Artificial Intelligence in the Prime Minister's department is working closely with me and Andrew Charlton and Ministers across the Government to deliver legislation as quickly as, the faster we move, the better the outcome for the national interest. We've got to do that work carefully and properly. Today's National Cabinet sets that up for a collaborative discussion with the states. Some of them are moving faster than others, that's true, but we've got to get on with it for Australia and to make sure that artificial intelligence is delivered here. In the national interest, of course, but also in the interests of local communities.

HOST: You're listening to Radio National Breakfast, where the Minister for Industry and Innovation, Tim Ayres, is my guest. I want to turn to Luke Gosling, the Federal MP who was charged last month with allegedly assaulting the Northern Territory administrator, David Connolly, which he strenuously denies. He's now been charged with breaching his bail conditions. His spokesperson last night said that he hadn't been made aware of the circumstances of that breach, but he'll contest that charge as well. Should the Prime Minister stand him aside as a Special Envoy while all of this is going on? Well.

AYRES: Well, no, there's nothing changes in relation to that question. Mr. Gosling's got an important job to do. The matter is before the courts. I understand he's issued a statement overnight and you've referred to that. The legal process is going to have to take its course here.

HOST: These bail conditions included having to keep a certain physical distance at events from the Administrator and a certain distance from Government House. Luke Gosling's lawyer has accused the NT police of “politicising this issue”. Do you think that it has been politicised from where you're sitting?

AYRES: Oh, look, all I know, Tom, in terms of the additional information, is what you've outlined and Mr. Gosling's statement overnight. He's got important work to do for the Government. There's a legal process there in Northern Territory that'll take its course and Mr. Gosling is going to keep, you know, he's going to keep doing that work on behalf of the Government.

HOST: Alright, Moving on to one other issue. The Productivity Commission seems to be a little upset by the insults directed their way over the last few days over their report on the WA GST deal – an interim report. Roger Cook called them clowns. And Madeleine King, your colleague, said that she could understand that language even if she wouldn't use it herself. The Prime Minister dismissed their views as those of “economic rationalists”. Is it appropriate to attack public servants for their independent advice?

AYRES: We're in a democracy, Tom, where there's strong views in Western Australia about this question and people have expressed those views. The Productivity Commission has important work to do for Australia and we're not a government that gets reports that contest our view and has a glass jaw about that. That was the previous government's approach. You know, if Mr. Morrison was contradicted, he got really angry with alternative views. We welcome alternative views, whether it's from independent agencies, like the Productivity Commission, or within the Australian community – from businesses or from stakeholders. We welcome those alternative views respectfully and that means we get to the right outcome in the Australian national interest.

HOST: But you talk about glass jaws. I mean, you know, for Roger Cook to call them clowns, is that a bit of a glass jaw?

AYRES: Oh, it's a colourful expression. That's true. It's a colourful expression –

HOST: One that you would use?

AYRES: But we, in my view, we're respectful of alternative views. There's a colourful contest. We're an Australian democracy. We should be comfortable and confident about the way that we engage with each other. And the Productivity Commission's got important work to do. And the Government will continue to respect the role of the Productivity Commission and all of the independent agencies and state governments that occasionally have alternative views to the view that the Government adopts.

HOST: But if you respect that process, I mean, why not wait for the final report to rule out definitively any change?

AYRES: Well, the Prime Minister has been very clear about this issue consistently over a long time, and he repeated that view very clearly in Perth on Monday. He has been a Prime Minister who – I travelled to Perth with the PM on Sunday afternoon it was his 45th trip as Prime Minister to Western Australia. It's a state that makes a very strong contribution to Australia in economic terms. It's a state that has particular needs. He gets Western Australia, understands what Western Australians need and the contribution that they make. And everything he's done has been completely consistent with that view and it should have surprised nobody.

HOST: Alright, Tim Ayres, thank you very much for your time.

AYRES: Thanks, Tom.