Interview with Ross Solly, ABC Breakfast

ROSS SOLLY, HOST: So, a couple of weeks ago, you might remember, we were talking about a fresh round of job cuts that was happening at the CSIRO at the time. We were hoping to speak to the Minister, Tim Ayres. He's a very busy man, though, but he has made some time available to us this morning. He's the Minister for Industry and Innovation, and of course, the Minister for Science, Tim Ayres. Good morning to you and welcome to the Breakfast Show.

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: G'day, Ross. Really good to be on the show.

HOST: Thank you. Now, just on the job cuts, and I know that it's been, a lot of water has passed under the bridge since the initial announcement, but in the Budget, you provided around $387 million extra for the CSIRO over four years. Just to clarify something, did you expect that money would help save some of those 350 jobs or not?

AYRES: Well, these are, you know, quite separate questions. Since I've been appointed as the Minister, it's been very clear to me that there is an effort that is required here to secure sustainability of the CSIRO. It is a really important institution for Australia. The CSIRO itself has been going through separately a reprioritisation of their research effort. But in funding terms, I know there've been people in your program claiming that there have been cuts. There's a billion dollars every year in annual appropriations for the CSIRO. Last year before Christmas, in MYEFO, an additional $240 million, and this year in the budget, an additional $387.4 million. We are backing the institution and making sure that it's got the funding that it needs because, we look at the big challenges that Australia faces, and science is absolutely central to that effort.

HOST: Yeah, but when you say reprioritisation, do you think that would happen, though, if they had the funding to do what they want to do? Because it seems to me, talking to people within the CSIRO, that there are a lot of very worthwhile projects that have been scrapped or watered back, not because of reprioritisation, but because they just don't have the funding Tim Ayres to do it anymore.

AYRES: Well, think about the counterfactual, though, Ross. If the Government was providing additional funding to the CSIRO and nothing was changing, in order to match the science priorities that Australia has and that the organisation has set out for itself that would be unacceptable. We need the CSIRO match fit, focused on the priorities that Australia needs. And of course, that has meant there's been a process that has been very rigorous and broad ranging process inside. Hundreds and hundreds of staff have been engaged in this effort. It's not – 

HOST: And hundreds and hundreds of staff have lost their jobs. When critics say, Tim Ayres, that under your leadership and under your Government, the CSIRO has actually shed more jobs than they did under Tony Abbott's leadership. That's right, isn't it? If you crunch the numbers, if you look at it, that's true.

AYRES: Well, there's an additional, well over $600 million of funding that I pointed out there.

HOST: Yeah, I'm just talking about jobs though. I'm just talking about jobs at the moment.

AYRES: And the organisation is leaning into more effort in some areas like critical minerals, artificial intelligence, the Australian Centre for Disease Preparedness, like all of these are really high priorities for us. Now think about the bird flu challenges that Australia is facing and future zoonotic disease challenges. The CSIRO is the core of our industrial and applied search in this area and leaning into that effort is absolutely crucial for our wildlife, for our agricultural sector, for the Australian economy more broadly, critical minerals research. Making sure that we can make critical metals here onshore is fundamental for our regional economies for good jobs.

HOST: But I'm just wondering. Sorry, Tim, is. I'm just wondering though, if the CSIRO though is being forced to close areas which maybe might actually backfire on us. For example, I understand they've got a fire testing centre in Ryde which did some great work after the Grenfell disaster in the UK. They did a lot of testing of all the flammable cladding and everything in Australia. They provide advice for the Government. I understand that their contract finishes in December and a decision has been taken not to renew it and that will leave Australia with just one fire testing centre in the whole of the country. That can't be a great outcome, can it?

AYRES: Well, I'll let the CSIRO management deal with the – 

HOST: Do you know about that though? Have you heard about that?

AYRES: Yes, yes, yes.

HOST: You can confirm it? 

AYRES: But in terms of the specifics of when programs begin and when they end, let me let them speak to those issues. The principle that they have been engaged in here is making sure that there's no duplication of effort that they're engaged with the other science organisations around the country, and that their effort is focused on the priorities that now that does mean there are really good people, really good scientists and researchers who will be doing different kinds of work. Some people will enter the organisation, some people will leave. That is, if you're a university, or another science or research organisation, programs begin and programs end. That is the case here. 

HOST: Yeah, but do you think Australia, a country our size with just one fire testing centre, I mean they ensure compliance with national building safety codes, they do all this sort of stuff. There are some people who are saying is going to hold up home building, etc. Etc. I mean, just having one for the entire country, Tim, is that can't be a great result, can it?

AYRES: Well, I haven't seen any evidence that it's going to have those kind of impacts. But we are as a Government, the Albanese Government here, providing additional funding to the CSIRO at very large scale. I as the Minister, working very closely with them on these short and medium term questions, but also on the long term, to make sure that this organisation has the assets and the infrastructure, the equipment and the staff, the relationships with the broader sector to make it, this week on its 100th anniversary, a match fit capable scientific organisation for Australia, that's the heart of our industrial research. That's our ambition here and we are, we are leaning into this in a real way with real dollars that are going to make a real difference.

HOST: Just on, because I know we're a bit conscious of the time, but just on AI, there was a pretty robust debate in the Senate this week. Are you considering, Minister, a text and data mining exemption to give the green light for AI companies to mine creative data free of charge here in Australia? Is that on the table?

AYRES: No, it's not. And this is – 

HOST: So, no way, it will not happen?

AYRES: There will be, despite some of the assertions that have been made about this, we've been very clear text and data mining exemption is not on the table for Australia.

HOST: Are we at risk of taking ourselves out of the game though?

AYRES: Well, that's the point. Right? Like there are, this is an important capability where, in Australia's interest in our security interest, and in our resilience interest. I want to see as much of the technology stack here in Australia so that it's Australians who are shaping the future of this technology that we're not just on the end of a long tech supply chain.

HOST: And can we do that if we don't give these AI companies access, free access to creative data?

AYRES: Well, we've been very clear about this. There won't be a text and data mining exemption. That's not on the table. But we do want to see broadly Australia capturing the economic and resilience benefit of this here in Australia. We want it spread across the Australian economy so that everybody benefits, not just in the big cities, but in the bush as well. And we're very focused on. We've established the AI Safety Institute. It's up and running now and working across our agencies and with international partners. And we're working to secure training and a range of other capabilities here because it's in our national interest and in it, in the interest of our resilience and our sovereignty.

HOST: It is the future. Tim Ayres. really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

AYRES: Thanks, Ross.