Interview with Laura Jayes, News24

LAURA JAYES, HOST: Let’s get into the great immigration tussle at the moment. All three major parties trying to figure out what voters want and what won't smash the economy. Joining me now is the Industry and Innovation Minister, Tim Ayres, with me here in the studio. Was it right to want to cut the refugee intake? Why not?

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: Well, I followed this as closely as I could yesterday. It was a busy day. But it seems like there's a settled Labor policy. Some different information has come out from the Department. The Prime Minister, at the first opportunity, has corrected that by saying, this is what the settled approach is to this issue. Fair enough, people are interested in that kind of dissonance there. But the Prime Minister has moved very fast to set out what the approach is and has been consistent all the way through. On the other side of politics, Laura, you've got Dan Tehan saying –

HOST: We can talk about the other side of politics, but you're in government, so let's just stay here for just a moment and then I'll let you go to the other side of politics. What is wrong with cutting the refugee intake when you're trying to get the numbers [down]?

AYRES: Well, it's a very small part of the overall migration program. We've been working hard since we came to government. Step one is fixing all of the problems in the Department and the way that processing was done. Huge amounts of labour hire. A mess that we inherited from the Coalition. So, we've taken steps to do that, [and have] nailed that question down. Secondly, reducing net overseas migration.

HOST: But what's wrong with cutting the refugee intake? What's your principle on that?

AYRES: Well, it's a settled approach. You have to land on a figure. That figure has been consistent. There's not a strong argument to move that figure. It's a small part of the overall migration program. When you think about the scale of the program –

HOST: Well, if you don’t cut refugees, you're going to have to cut somewhere else.

AYRES: Well, that is the case where you have different programs and as government looks across what is in the national interest here.

HOST: But you're in the cohort that thinks the refugee intake should stay at 20,000. For what reason?

AYRES: Well, you think about the history of our refugee program and the people who have come through that program and have made a really big contribution to Australia. So, I wouldn't single that program out. Of course, there's a focus on skilled migration, making sure that works for us at the moment.

HOST: Well, we have a skills shortage at the moment, and that is where the debate is. The refugee intake, whether you like it or not, maybe a little bit heartless to say, doesn’t help the skills.

AYRES: Well, many of those people bring…I mean, you know, some of them…people who've made a real contribution. So, I wouldn't single that program out.

HOST: Not at all, but if you're trying to solve for a skills shortage and you're trying to bring the numbers down, you still – I'm just trying to get to why you would maintain that?

AYRES: I was listening to Bran [Black]’s contribution just a minute ago. And listening carefully to that, what can we do both in terms of the skilled migration program and making sure that other parts of the migration program deliver, in particular for regional Australia? Poor old David Farley had a crack at trying to explain that a few days ago from his perspective, and the following day had an unelected staffer with a mop, like a staffer on the following day humiliating the bloke.

HOST: Why are you complaining about that? Because One Nation's numbers would be closer to Labor.

AYRES: Well, that's –

HOST: I mean, this is bipartisan policy with One Nation is it not?

AYRES: That's what Mr. Farley said…That's why I say, like, there's a lot of noise as One Nation and the Liberals and the Nationals kind of compete with each other in this kind of disorderly show.

HOST: You were competing in the same arena for the same votes and the same amount of voters who are concerned about the migration increase.

AYRES: We are running an orderly migration program. We will make announcements in due course about the evolution of that migration program to make sure it's delivering in the national interest. There's a kind of clown show over there. Mr. Tehan said on Friday that the Coalition had a comprehensive policy. Mr. Duniam said on Saturday, we don't have a settled policy, we'll have it next year, Mr. Farley said, oh, well, I'm for skilled migration. Ms. Hanson was out the following day berating him and sending an unelected staffer onto television to humiliate the bloke. Every day there are three or four different positions as that, you know, One Nation, the Liberals and Nationals – don't forget, they can't govern without each other – try and compete. We are running an orderly migration program, listening carefully to the views of business and views from shows like yours where this issue of skilled migration has been elevated and it should be. That should be the focus of public discussion.

HOST: Well, let me put it to you. Tony Burke announces, commits to a speech at the National Press Club. He then pulls out of that because there's disagreement in the NSC and then in Cabinet. Then there are leaks to various newspapers. The Prime Minister apparently steps in to kill it after the Department tells the Refugee Council that the refugee number has been cut. Tell me that's not a clown show.

AYRES: Well, I think there's two kind of disconnected elements of that. I mean, you're telling the story. I don't comment on what happens in Cabinet or in our processes, but Tony said himself, he was preparing to deliver an outline of the Government's approach. The Government decided, look, there's more work to do to settle some of these questions and listen a bit more. Like, that is a good thing.

HOST: Who's in charge?

AYRES: But we’re not rushing to get to an announcement because there's some, you know, political pressure. We're not dictated by a political –

HOST: You’re not under pressure from One Nation?

AYRES: No.

HOST: Well, why are you talking about it so much?

AYRES: Because it's in the national interest.

HOST: If there’s no rush, why are you talking?

AYRES: Because it's in the national interest to settle these questions. You said yourself earlier on, areas like construction, engineering, all of these areas. We’ve got to make sure that we're delivering for the country here. That's partly about initiatives like Free TAFE, backing our universities, thinking carefully about the student intake, but it is also about skilled migration. All of these things together have been the Australian story. And it will require constant work to make sure that the migration program matches our national requirements. That's the work that Tony is leading. In due course, we'll come out with an approach that will represent an evolution, but it'll be consistent with the approach that we've taken over the last few years. Net overseas migration down –

HOST: Isn’t consistency the problem, because the skills list is cooked?

AYRES: Net overseas migration down. We are at a point in our history where that has been –

HOST: Bridging visas up. Overstayers up.

AYRES: Well, we'll have more to say about these questions in due course.

HOST: Okay, let's talk about data centres. A bit of a backdown this week. What is the requirement now for Queensland and the Northern Territory?

AYRES: Okay, it's a consistent national position. So, number one, don't forget mandatory standards on energy and on water that mean that there must be energy additionality, so additional electricity, renewable electricity built, in the system.

HOST: So, is it additional renewables?

AYRES: I'll come to this question. I won't dodge this part of it. I'm just saying that is the principle nationally. What has been decided, I think a very sensible adjustment, is that where there is a state-owned generator owned by a government like Queensland, where there's excess capacity, they will have some flexibility to make sure that they're delivering additionality.

HOST: So, they can use gas?

AYRES: Well, we're all using gas in the system. Gas is part of the electricity mix. The cheapest approach: renewables and solar backed by batteries and gas. Gas will always form part of the approach.

HOST: Right.

AYRES: This does mean that a state-owned generator under the direction of the government can make adjustments to create a little bit of flexibility there. But the principle has to be [that] there cannot be upward pressure on electricity prices. So, that is written into the mandatory standards. That's what's going to be delivered through the policy. I think that's a sensible adjustment and that's why, you know, I've always said we’ve got to respect the National Cabinet processes. Right. Like that's what the Prime Minister runs, a fair dinkum National Cabinet.

HOST: So, they have changed after the representations from Queensland and Northern Territory?

AYRES: Well, it's a very small adjustment that goes to what happens where there is a state-owned generator. Right. And that is, with the greatest respect, a kind of niche issue. But it's important to make sure that, where the government has a bit more control, that there's a bit of flexibility there to make sure that that works. But the overall principle is not changed. That is, additional renewable generation is required because that means the lowest possible cost outcome and that we're using it to drive building out of the electricity system because we need to modernise and rebuild our electricity system.

HOST: Tim, we always get carried away. We are well out of time. Thanks so much, I appreciate it.

AYRES: Thanks. Laura, good to see you.