Interview with Kieran Gilbert, News24 Newsday

KIERAN GILBERT, HOST: Let’s bring in the Industry and Innovation Minister Tim Ayres, thanks for your time. To our viewers asking why should taxpayers be giving $200 million to a multinational like Rio Tinto?

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: Well, because we want, the Albanese Government wants Australia to be a country that makes things, particularly in critical supply chains and processes like aluminium. You know, we have in Australia one of the world's only end-to-end aluminium supply chains. From mining bauxite, all the way through to refining and smelting aluminium, through to finished aluminium products, and then aluminium in advanced manufacturing and really high-value processes. This is a core capability for Australia. We have moved to make sure, that both on the mainland and now in Tasmania, we've secured smelter arrangements that increase the amount of investment in the electricity system on the mainland. And here in Tasmania, I was very clear I wanted to see Tas Hydro, the publicly owned electricity utility, sharpen its pencil and deliver a competitive deal. They have done that work, and we've stepped in with Tasmania to make sure that that facility's got a clear line of sight all the way through to well into the 2030s.

HOST: Can you guarantee for the taxpayer that this organisation that Bell Bay and Rio won't be back in another five years asking for another bailout?

AYRES: Well, what I can guarantee is that the facility will be operating for this period, that they will continue to invest. 500 direct staff in that part of Northern Tasmania, where these jobs are crucial, and 1,000 indirect employees will continue to have work. And there's hundreds of engineering and other supply chain firms in that part of the world that really require this investment. It's a smart deal because what it does, is it means that the taxpayer doesn't subsidise this facility at any period where, the aluminium price is above a particular threshold and support diminishes over time as the aluminium price goes up. Like it's a smart deal.

HOST: Do you think it will be able to stand on its own two feet at some point?

AYRES: Well, what I want to see here is continued investment in the facility. And of course, our work doesn't stop the moment that this deal is announced. We will be working with the owners here but also more broadly in this part of Tasmania, where there's enormous industrial capability, enormous opportunities for investment, we want to secure additional investment in new facilities there, that means that industrial economy keeps growing.

HOST: But do you think it can stand on its own two feet at some point?

AYRES: You look at this facility. It looks old from outside because it's still inside the same buildings that it has been for the last 70 years. It's our smallest and oldest facility. It looks old. But inside, you know, they have just installed the world's most modern and youngest ingot casting facility. That has an enormous effect on their productivity. They turn over their pot lines. So, each pot has to be redone every 3 or 4 or 4.5 years. They are continuing with that investment to build their capability. There's an enormously resilient staff who, you know, without the workers and the management there working together over the last 12 uncertain months, there wouldn't be a capable, effective industrial facility to invest in. I mean, we will work hard with Rio Tinto –

HOST: I guess the question is, will it be subsidised forever? I mean, is there a time when you can see it standing on its own two feet again?

AYRES: Well, what that's going to require, Kieran, is continued investment in the electricity network, continued here and on the mainland. And that's why the Tomago deal and the Boyne smelter deal in Gladstone in Central Queensland have been all about using these investments to underwrite, in the Queensland case, $7.5 billion of new wind and solar backed by gas to lower costs and to make that facility more competitive. Now, Rio Tinto, whether it's in the facility that they 100 per cent own in Queensland and Tasmania, or in the facility that they are part owner of in Tomago, are demanding clean, green electricity for their facility, not because they are hippies, but because it's the lowest-cost form of electricity and that's what future markets are going to demand. That's what the industrial and mining and resources titans are demanding of Australia for future competitiveness, is low-emissions electricity. Tasmania delivers that. I mean, they have had hydro there since the 1950s. It's been a key source of Tasmania's competitiveness and their lower electricity prices. I saw Angus Taylor's interview earlier today. I mean, goodness me, I mean, he either doesn't know what he's talking about, or it's a dumb and dishonest campaign that he's running.

HOST: To scrap net zero? You're talking net zero, because he says it's embedding costs which our competitors aren't having to pay, and you should dump it.

AYRES: Well, Rio Tinto are not the only major industrial firm that has been very direct and very clear. The only people who aren't listening is the Liberals and Nationals and One Nation who want to run the same election campaign to, sort of, appeal to their diminishing base.

HOST: But a lot of the world are of a similar view. The President of the United States shares their view, if not stronger.

AYRES: We have a different competitive advantage in Australia. That's what you've got to get through Mr. Taylor's skull and the others here. We have a different competitive advantage. Enormous space. Wind and solar, backed by gas, is the lowest possible cost electricity for Australia. Our Future Made in Australia approach.

HOST: At the moment. What about uranium? We've got a heap of that? And that technology's going to change really quickly, with AI –

AYRES: Well, so people keep saying, Kieran. I mean, honestly. It would be the most expensive thing that Australia could do –

HOST: At the moment –

AYRES: To atrophy our economy, forever? We are determined to modernise our electricity system to build a Future Made in Australia. There is no other credible plan. The people of Australia had a look at the last iteration –

HOST: You should lift the moratorium, though, shouldn't you? Just let the market choose?

AYRES: But what you need to provide for the market is certainty, and a clear direction. And that is what we are providing. That is why industry is continuing to invest. I mean, if we just said, oh, we'll wait for coal fire. Tomago closed. Boyne Smelter closed. Bell Bay closed, under the Liberals plans. For us, we have sustained tens of thousands of jobs, whether it's in these aluminium facilities or these other facilities, by doing things like the interventions, but also reserving Australian gas for Australian industry. Focusing on the energy questions in a real and practical way, instead of this sort of campaigning and the social media memes and all of the angry nonsense, that doesn't generate a single watt of electricity. All it generates is click bait and headlines –

HOST: I think it'd be practical to lift that moratorium. But anyway, I want to ask you quickly –

AYRES: It's a talking point. Another story, it doesn't generate any electricity.

HOST: I think it is changing. We live in a very uncertain and changing world. Agree to disagree.

AYRES: It would mean investment would stop and we would go backwards. That's what would happen. It would be a bad idea. We've fixed on a plan, we’ve been elected to deliver that plan –

HOST: Just to lift the moratorium? We're not saying go and fund something, just lift the ban –

AYRES: People are going around in circles on the right of politics on this issue, chasing their own tail. Well, we delivered today for 500 workers and 1,000 indirect workers because we're unashamedly a pro-manufacturing Government and this is the only way to get it done.

HOST: Well, I want to ask you about this thing the Tax Office has said. Small businesses can't pay their bills via credit card anymore. Many small businesses keep their head above water, barely. They need cash flow. Should the Government, should the Tax Office rethink this? It's just come in today with this ban on surcharges. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to put an added weight on many small businesses who will struggle to find 4, 5, 10 grand. That credit card will keep them afloat. Surely the Tax Office needs to rethink that.

AYRES: As I understand it, about 2.3, 2.4 per cent. Don't quote me on the figures, but in the mid 2 per cent of businesses pay using a credit card, the overwhelming majority of those are not small businesses. And the reason that the credit card payments have been stopped is because the surcharge is paid by the taxpayer. It's kind of perverse. You're paying taxes. The surcharge is paid for by the taxpayer. The efforts of the ATO given that they, even though it's only 2 per cent, they're a large customer, and there's a really strong public case for lowering the surcharge. Credit card companies wouldn't come to the party on that question. It's a prudent approach in that circumstance, where overwhelmingly the costs are being borne by the taxpayer.

HOST: What about the small business who needs a bit of flexibility?

AYRES: Well, a very small number of small businesses, and there are many ways for firms to pay their bills. We're always listening as a Government, but those are the facts as I understand them. Kieran, it's 2 and a bit percent. Overwhelming majority of those are not the kind of small businesses that your questions go to. There are alternative ways of paying and the way that it was going, the taxpayer was paying an enormous amount in surcharges to the credit card companies themselves. That's not a fair dinkum way to let it continue to go. And Daniel Mulino has been explaining these issues today and we'll keep explaining those, but that's the facts as I understand them.

HOST: Okay, well, we'll see, the Chamber of Commerce is not happy with it. We'll discuss it more in coming days. We've got to let you go. Tim Ayres, thanks. Appreciate your time.

AYRES: Thanks, Kieran.