Interview on ABC News Breakfast

JAMES GLENDAY, HOST: We're joined in the studio by the Federal Industry Minister, Tim Ayres. Tim, welcome to the program.

SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: Good morning. It's good to be here.

HOST: It is nice to see you in person. Now, we've been chatting to you a lot lately because you've been travelling around the country announcing these, well, I guess bailouts, some people call them. But you've been propping up heavy industry across the country. How much money, on the flip side of this, are you spending on sovereign AI capability at the moment? It's important that we have sovereign heavy industries. Do we have a sovereign AI industry at the moment?

AYRES: Yeah. It's a really good question about how we make sure we've got the right AI capabilities in Australia to build our national resilience and to grow our economy. The National Reconstruction Fund has been investing in Australian AI capability. I'm thinking now about where the National Reconstruction Fund has invested into firms like Harrison.AI that are artificial intelligence firms in the health sector. And this effort to make sure that we deliver artificial intelligence training here is fundamentally about Australian sovereignty and AI sovereignty, and making sure that we are shaping the technology, not just having the technology shape us.

HOST: Yeah, I was wondering that because you keep saying that you want AI to be on Australia's terms, but at the moment it is really the big models from the United States that we are seeing here. And if we don't have our own capability, we're going to be relying on their terms. Right?

AYRES: Well, there's an opportunity on the artificial intelligence training front. And so for your viewers, what that means is that the work that the models do to bring in data, to use the data to shape the way that the model responds to questions and to stimulus, bringing that here as a second hub for AI training, means that we'll have more tools at our disposal. Having our AI Safety Institute, our national intelligence community, the private sector, engaging with these models being trained here. More of an opportunity to shape the way that they deal with Australia and with Australians.

HOST: We've had this Parliamentary Committee that's been happening this week and we saw an OpenAI exec, he was asked about whether agents could already break into, say, an Australian water processing facility or gas facility. He said they don't know.

AYRES: Yeah.

HOST: Is security up to scratch? Can we fend off these hacks?

AYRES: Yeah, well, the stronger our AI and cybersecurity capability, the more adequately we can deal with these attacks. Cyber security is not a new phenomenon. There are thousands and thousands of efforts by non-state actors, by state actors, trying to get through Australia's cyber security defences in the public sector and the private sector all of the time. What's different about this, is these are AI agents, robots, effectively, that have not been following their instructions. And that is what Anthony Albanese called out at the UN General Assembly. It's why there was a very sharp and direct discussion with OpenAI. We're really pleased that OpenAI's been very cooperative with the Australian Government following that. Fronting up to the inquiry is a good thing. Being open and transparent is the right approach, but we've got a lot more work to do.

HOST: Yeah, I just wonder, though, I mean, it's nice that they've said sorry and all the rest of it, but I think when people think of a hacker, they think of someone, you know, one person doing it. I mean, these AI programs can bas basically do that, times a million, right? And they can do it all the time. Are we ready for this new reality we live in?

AYRES: That's why I say there's lots more work to do. That's why the Albanese Government's taking the approach that it is. Not just to sort of tick a box, but to build capability across Government. The AI Safety Institute spending time with them again today as they build their capability to give Government and government agencies right across the board the advice that we need, cooperating with our international partners. There's only 8 other AI safety institutes in economies across the globe. We've got a world-leading approach here in Australia and we're cooperating with our partners like the UK AI Safety Institute to make sure that we've got the world's best response. But it is going to be day after day, month after month, building our capability and making Australia stronger.

HOST: On a different topic, we've had a story we've been covering today as well, and we'll continue to cover this landmark High Court ruling. So, it's found that planning authorities need to consider emissions caused by burning fossil fuels overseas when they approve projects. Now, this is a particular coal expansion in NSW. How big a deal is this for coal and gas projects in Australia?

AYRES: I'm not sure it is a very big deal. I mean, it's a High Court decision, but it's absolutely confined to the provisions of the NSW Act and the way that the NSW – I'll get the terminology wrong – but Planning Authority, who did the assessment there, did their work. It's reaffirmed a lower court decision. It really is a matter for NSW, this question, it doesn't, as I understand the decision – and I'm not a lawyer, I'm not even a bush lawyer – but it seems to me this is a decision that's absolutely confined to a particular set of circumstances in NSW. It doesn't mean, with this mine extension proposal, for example, that it will not go ahead. It's a technical decision and we'll leave it to the NSW authorities to explain it and work their way through it.

HOST: Given you're responsible for heavy industry, and of course, heavy industry uses a lot of power and at the moment a lot of that power comes from coal, are we going to see a scenario where coal that is dug up and sent overseas, that Australia is going to be responsible for the emissions that are burned in the creation of that?

AYRES: No, that would be inconsistent with our obligations. Our obligations are to reduce emissions here in Australia and do that by doing things like modernising our electricity network.

HOST: And if Korea wants to burn our coal, it's on them, basically.

AYRES: Well, that's not quite right. It's up to Korea to comply with their obligations. Or Japan or the United States, or all of the Southeast Asian economies, for example, which have all got their own emissions obligations that they've signed up to. It's their obligation to do that work. That's how the international framework works. So, we're doing things here in Australia like reserving – it's not just coal, it's about gas as well – we're reserving Australian gas. Big decision by the Government this year will come to the Parliament to reserve up to 20% of Australian gas to make sure that we've got low-cost gas here for heavy industry. That's a big industrial reform that'll make Australian industry more competitive.

HOST. So, you don't think jobs are at risk here or investment is at risk out of this decision?

AYRES: No, I don't. I mean, obviously we watch all of these decisions carefully, but it does seem to me that this decision is squarely a NSW decision that relates to some parameters of the NSW statute and the way that the planning authority in NSW has dealt with those. The NSW Government will work that through. It doesn't fundamentally alter any of these questions for Australia. We've got a big job to do, making Australian industry more competitive, but also working with partners around the world to lower emissions.

HOST: Before we let you go, we broadcast from Victoria every morning. You're obviously here working today. Work from home's been a big issue in the State. Cricket Victoria is encouraging people to work from the Sheffield Shield. Now, is that a good use of work from home? Should people be doing that?

AYRES: Well, it is a very clever marketing strategy from Cricket Victoria. I haven't bought tickets yet myself.

HOST: You're not setting up there today?

AYRES: I think really my advice to Australians would be: figure this out with the boss. And most Australians won't have the capacity to work from the Sheffield Shield or whatever this particular event is. You know, I wish Cricket Victoria all the best. It's going to be a fantastic summer of cricket. But these kinds of arrangements are best left to Australians and their employers.

HOST: Can you understand why business groups are unhappy?

AYRES: Well, I think I can, but I do think this is just a clever marketing strategy. It's worked, because we're all talking about it this morning. More Australians will think about buying tickets to go to the cricket. It's actually a good thing. The more people turn up to organised sport – it's a great Australian activity. It's a terrific day. I'm all about the NSW–Victoria rivalry, but I do have to admit, we've got the Melbourne Cup coming up. We've got a summer of cricket, we've got tennis. It's going to be a great summer of Australian sport.

HOST: It will be. Tim Ayres, thanks for your time.

AYRES: Thanks very much.