Interview with Stewart Brash, ABC Alice Springs

STEWART BRASH:  And a big conference starting in Central Australia this week, it is the Developing Northern Australia Conference, bringing together government, business, community and commerce to chart the future for the north. And yes, yes, I know, many of you Central Australians say, "We're not in the north", well, we are, for the purposes of northern development, and of course the Tropic is literally just up the road, so please put that one away.

But here in the NT, you and I have spoken over the years about the drivers of development. Mining, critical minerals, Beetaloo gas, increasingly, we're talking about hyperscale data centres, but for towns like Alice and Tennant Creek and beyond, we're also talking about the challenges of attracting and keeping our working population.

Now in recent weeks the NT Chief Minister, Lia Finocchiaro, called for the NT to get carve outs, so we're not subject to new federal policies on gas reservations, as well as data centres, and just last month the Chief Minister called for reform to migration zones and boosting zone tax offsets for Northern Australia.

Madeleine King, Federal Minister for Resources and Northern Australia is in the Alice for the conference. Good morning.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: A pleasure to be here, Stewart.

STEWART BRASH: Let's just talk about the conference itself. Cynics like me will say it's just a talkfest, people come together, nothing actually comes out of this sort of conference. Does it matter? Why do these sort of conferences matter?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I suppose you could say that about any conference.

STEWART BRASH: Probably, yeah.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I mean that's one way of looking at it I suppose, but the truth is it's quite a challenge for people across the north to come together, and it's important everyone makes the effort to do so, and to have the Developing Northern Australia Conference here in the heart of the country is an important moment.

It's in its 11th year. I've been to a number of them. I sadly couldn't make the one in Cairns last year because Parliament was sitting. But it brings leadership together across governments and all levels of governments, lot of local government people from around the country. I was at Anzac Hill to see the sun set and saw some of the team from the East Pilbara, and it's good that people from my home state come to the Territory to see what's going on here and hear from others and equally from North Queensland as well.

So, it's a full few days of meetings, of learning from others, and I think that's important when you think of the three jurisdictions that make up Northern Australia, the challenges they face, whether that be geographical or through events beyond anyone's control in terms of weather and so forth, and also how they can work together to attract investment to this, you know, pretty amazing part of the country.

STEWART BRASH: The Territory and like much of remote Australia, especially the north, goes with cycles of boom and bust. You see resource developments, you see say in Darwin, Ichthys impacts, and then you see a downturn, we see this constantly. How do you see the future of say the Northern Territory in the context of northern development in that cycle, because we keep on seeing the same things happen? 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: You're right about to point out about the boom and bust, and that's why it's important to have diversity of projects, if you like, to smooth out those highs and lows of investment, and therefore, highs and lows of jobs and employment, and therefore, population attraction too.

And if you can smooth that out, which we try to do, what remains can remain stable is all those other little side businesses that you really depend on, I mean I've got a coffee from down the road this morning, you want those services to always be here; good coffee, good childcare, aged care, all these things, but they depend on some of the investment that comes along with some of these projects.

So we look to long-term projects, really important, the Arafura Nolans Project, not that far from here, just over 100 kilometres, is going to be one of those 40- to 50-year mining projects that will be important for Alice, but also the development of the Beetaloo Gas Basin will bring other projects into the Northern Territory.

STEWART BRASH: On Nolans Bore, now we can't, and the government says, the NT Government said they want to encourage more drive in drive out for people to live in Alice Springs. But you come from interstate, and I go to Terminal 3 of Qantas very frequently as I go down to Perth, and of course, WA runs on fly in fly out. How do we develop communities, develop towns and develop populations when there is such an emphasis on fly in fly out say, and I'm just using Nolans Bore as another example, but how do we ensure that that isn't the case, and what levers can be actually pulled to ensure that mining companies, resource companies, do say actually, we're going to live in Tennant Creek, we're going to live in Alice Springs? 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah. I think there's always going to be a combination of fly in fly out and drive in drive out just because of the way the mine development changes, so there's a lot of construction work, and that has a time scale, it's limited, but then there's the ongoing operations, which is where you want that local workforce.

So, one of the levers, for instance, in the Government's loan to Arafura Nolans Bore is   

STEWART BRASH: Can you pull out NAIF money and say   

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Oh, no, we don't pull the NAIF money.

STEWART BRASH: Can you use the lever of the NAIF money?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, it's got conditions around it, and one of them is local community engagement, but also Indigenous engagement strategies, it's a part of any NAIF loan.

STEWART BRASH: Sure.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: And so those engagement strategies lead to ensuring that there is a local workforce, Indigenous and otherwise, that participates in it. Each NAIF loan has to bring local community benefits. So, those levers are already built in, and what we find is miners like a good company like Arafura, they also want to be part of the community, and the greatest success comes when such industry is part of the community. It's more sustainable, it's long lasting, and for a mine that's not that far from here - it's not down the road.

STEWART BRASH: It could be drive in, it would be drive in drive out, you could do that? 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: It could certainly be, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

STEWART BRASH: Something which I mentioned to you off-air was the 20 per cent domestic reservation for gas which your government has proposed and up until recently has seemed like the Territory Government are looking for a carve-out where they were not subject to the 20 per cent domestic reservation. But just clarifying that the NT will be part of that as much as the rest of the East Coast? 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: And the West Coast for that matter.

STEWART BRASH: You already had a reservation scheme over in the west, I thought.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: We do, but it's important that the whole country is part of the reservation scheme, and there will be means of accounting for existing reservation policies, so the Western Australian one has been very effective. It was hard fought, I might add, it was very politically unpopular at the time, but it's now proven its worth, and it's not quite the same, so we need to work with the WA Government, and we will on that.

From the Northern Territory's perspective, it will be subject to the Gas Reservation Policy, but clearly there's not the infrastructure in place to meet that obligation of the 20 per cent.

STEWART BRASH: And when we talk about 20 per cent domestic reservation, does that mean for domestic use in the Territory, or is it still able to be exported to the east obviously?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: To the whole country, yes.

STEWART BRASH: Well, we need pipelines, we don't have pipelines.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: That's right, yes.

STEWART BRASH: So how will we solve the issue of pipelines to the east?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Indeed. And so, the reservation obligation will adjust for those constraints, but what we are finding is because of the reservation policy and the need for gas companies to be able to provide that gas, we are seeing increased interest in investment in pipelines to the south and the east.

STEWART BRASH: Is that something that NAIF could be used for to encourage   

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yes.

STEWART BRASH:    the pipeline development?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yes, it could, at the moment it doesn't look like it will be necessary, so that's a whole process that has to be gone through, and proponents will come to us, to NAIF or they will not, but at the moment it's very encouraging that the various pipeline organisations are seeking to do this kind of investment.

STEWART BRASH: There’s set to be 12 data centres planned for the Northern Territory, some are more advanced than others. SunCable are talking about one, in the Barkly Murranji Station, also in the Northern Barkly, one hyperscaled, one in the Darwin rural area as well.

Now the Chief Minister, Lia Finocchiaro, wants a carve-out for the NT when it comes to power and water, 'cause the Prime Minister's made it clear he wants unified guidelines relating to the development of data centres across the country. The Chief Minister wants – well, we're different, we have access to power, we have access to say gas, easy gas, and also to water. What's the Federal Government's perspective on the call for that carve-out by Lia Finocchiaro?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: It is important to have uniform rules and to have a framework around data centres, which is a new industry. And if we think about the gas reservation. If only we had done this reserve type work 15 years ago before the exports started, it wouldn't be as complicated to implement now. 

And that's the same for data centres, we need to have some ground rules, because people, you know, they read a lot in the media about how much water, we're not quite sure how much water, some demand more than others, the power they require is enormous.

Nonetheless they're inevitable, and they're going to be important for our future, and I think it was – well, I know it was the Pope in his encyclical wrote, “It is the building site of our time,” or “the construction site of our time.”

STEWART BRASH: Well it’s the Industrial Revolution   

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: And we want to be part of it.

STEWART BRASH: [Indistinct] revolution. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: And I want the NT to be part of it too, but equally, the communities that will be nearby these things or adjacent to them, they need to ensure they don't suck up that water and power.

STEWART BRASH: So, will the NT be subject to any federal guidelines?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yes.

STEWART BRASH: Will they be able to go alone and say, "No, we're going to do it a different way because of our water supply" and so on?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: The Prime Minister's been very clear, they've taken it to National Cabinet, so we work with the territories and the states to make sure we get this right, and I'm sure the Chief Minister will put those views to the Prime Minister, as well she should, and that's fine, and I think it's a good thing that these views are vented.

Having said that, a uniform framework is a good place to start because the needs for data centres are the same around the country, they don't change, and I mean if the NT is able to provide that power and water, then it's obviously fine.

STEWART BRASH: But the Chief Minister is saying, for instance, you know, say for the one in the Darwin rural area, they're talking about gas but no renewables, but the Prime Minister's been clear about the use of renewables in these, so if they don't comply with what the PM and your government's asking for, how do you actually make the NT go along with unified laws?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: What we also find is these data centres themselves want to invest in renewables so that they have a green aspect to what they're selling around the world. So, I think it's to be encouraged. I do know whatever renewables are used will need to be supported by gas right around the country, of course including the Territory, but everywhere else as well.

STEWART BRASH: Can I look at something last week – last month, the Chief Minister was at the Future NT forum in Darwin. Now she was asking for several things; special migration zones for Northern Australia, also increase to the remote zone tax offsets. I looked at the tax offsets. For Alice and Darwin, it's $338 per annum, and that hasn't changed since 1993/94.

Now if we're trying to encourage people using tax offsets, that's not going to encourage anyone into Central Australia and Remote Australia in general. Should those be reviewed and how much should they be increased by?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, the government's happy to look at proposals coming from Territory governments. I'm not going to nominate a figure of what that should be.

STEWART BRASH: But do you admit that they seem – having not changed in 33 years that that needs to be looked at and that should be increased.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: And I imagine it's something that the Chief Minister will put to the Treasurer and the Prime Minister. I'm not sure if that has a formal discussion between the two governments, but I do accept, and I do hear this a lot as well at different forums around different taxation models for the Territory, or indeed just parts of the Territory.

STEWART BRASH: It is making it sort of in a taxation sense a pull factor. Is that a good idea to try and attract people to remote places like this? We always talk about trying to get workforces, but also trying to keep workforces in Central Australia and the Barkly and beyond.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah. I think it's one – it could be one aspect of many is the truth of it. There's having tax exemptions to attract people and keep them there, but there's also making sure you invest in the infrastructure for people that are here that maybe won't be able to claim those tax exemptions because they don't earn enough.

So there's a whole ecosystem of government support that you can put around making towns work better.

STEWART BRASH: So not just tax offsets. But it does go – you'll probably, you'll be asked this question, the Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander Gallery of Australia went belly up last year. The Feds were going to put $80 million into that, I understand that money's gone into consolidated revenue. But would it be good for the Government to reinvest that money, that $80 million, which was going to the gallery – now, I'm not going to get into the whys and where ifs of why the money was taken, but it failed. But should the people of Alice Springs expect that if they want, that they could get that $80 million for another investment. And I know Marion Scrymgour is probably speaking to – going to speak to you or has spoken to you about this.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: And I heard reports from Marion, the Member for Lingiari, that she is seeking to do exactly that, is to make sure that $80 million does go elsewhere, so I'll actually be catching up with her later today, and we'll have that discussion, and then we'll have to go speak to the Minister for Finance, and so forth, but I do understand the idea.

STEWART BRASH: Very big investment.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah, it was a very big investment. It was coupled with a co contribution from the NT Government. The NT Government changed their mind.

STEWART BRASH: They gave an ultimatum, but yeah.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah.

STEWART BRASH: But your interest – you will look at investigating that?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, absolutely, and there's no reason not to.

STEWART BRASH: Quick question. The PM promised at the last election to buy back or get Australian interest buying back the port in Darwin. That hasn't happened. Will it happen? Because there's a lot of obstacles. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: It is a challenge, there's no doubt about it, but my Cabinet colleague, the other King in the Cabinet.  

STEWART BRASH: Catherine King.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING:    yeah, Catherine King, is working on this right now, and we are still pursuing that.

STEWART BRASH: Still committed? No buyers out there. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: We are still committed to it. It's, you know, difficult to sell, is the truth of it, so   

STEWART BRASH: Well, difficult to get your hands on it if the people who own it don't want to sell.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Don't want to sell it, that's right.

STEWART BRASH: Yeah.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: And we do live in a market-based economy, and we have to respect the rules around that.

STEWART BRASH: So it may not happen at all, it might have just been a false promise?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: No, it's not, it will happen. It's just going to be difficult to make happen, there's no doubt.

STEWART BRASH: But it will happen regardless? 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: And we all knew this, but that's why it shouldn't have been sold in the first place, and unfortunately the Liberal Government did sell it, and we're determined to get it back.

STEWART BRASH: Madeleine King, I'll leave you there. Enjoy your stay in Alice.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Thank you so much.