Interview on ABC News with Patricia Karvelas

PATRICIA KARVELAS: For a view from the government, I want to bring in the Resources Minister, Madeleine King. Welcome to the programme.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Good to be with you.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Do you know how much it is?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I saw the footage and I heard Minister Ayres on the radio this morning and I think Minister Ayres is very clear on what a challenge it has been to try and save the blast furnace at Whyalla. And there's many, many good reasons to do so for the workforce, for the secondary jobs that come in a town of Whyalla which is really based around that industry. 

But as to the sum itself, it has just closed today. That's the announcement. What I do know from this is Minister's Ayres portfolio, I know from similar projects is that it does take time to understand the full cost.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But it's in the billions, isn't it?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: No, look, I'm not going to speculate on it. What I would say is that we had to try to save it and that was important, had to be investigated because it is a sovereign steelmaking capacity. 

It's not the end of the story for Whyalla, though, that's really important. There is a future in greener steel making. That's challenging, but it's really important. We have much interest in the site, in what is there. But the truth is that blast furnace had been neglected for a very long time.

PATRICIA KARVELAS. So, it brings me to. I know it's not your portfolio, but it's kind of adjacent.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Oh, absolutely is, yeah.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, on the theme of the investment versus the return, I think it is a really important question about how much taxpayer funding is put into something that clearly was going to be a fail. Did the government know that this was a futile exercise?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I totally disagree with that premise. We invest in things to try and save them, to save the workforce -

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But if we know it's not going to work.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: No, we knew it was a challenge, but you could say that for a number of projects. It's like when the Coalition Government abandoned refining fuel in Western Australia, in my hometown of Kwinana. So, they didn't even try. Not even trying. 

We had a good try, but we knew by doing this with the South Australian Government, collaboratively and cooperatively in the interest of the workforce, for Whyalla, for all of South Australia, but importantly, national sovereign capability. We had to make an effort. But what we have done is make sure there is capacity for future steelmaking in Whyalla.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: When you refer to this term national sovereign capability, we've lost that now.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Only in respect of that blast furnace. What we are doing right now and the Minister for Employee Relations Amanda Rishworth and her team and department have been present in Whyalla for some time, is working on making sure that the skills those workers have can be preserved. Because as we work and develop in the sales process, we get to rebuild another, more modern, enduring steelmaking capacity. So, yeah, there's going to be a gap and that's a real challenge and that's why we're there. It's a good push for the workforce.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: On the gap. How significant is that gap going to be in terms of that sovereign capability?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, we can still make, steel in New South Wales through BlueScope, so that's important. Well, we're going through the sale process and it's a significant site.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: In terms of transforming it. That is a huge gap, isn't it?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Do you mean the ability to do so?

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Yeah, to go to the next phase? What sort of  - are we talking here

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: My understanding is it's a few years, but I'm not as close to it as others and I heard Premier Malinauskas talking about this. But you could again, you could say that of many things it might take some time. Doesn't mean you don't do it. You've got to put your shoulder to the wheel, bring the community with you, make sure there are jobs for the future and that sovereign capacity is so important so that we can always have that ability to make steel. There will be a gap, but we're going to close it. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Do you think it's important though for transparency of government spending, that even if people accept your argument that you had to give it a red-hot go, that you need to also account for that kind of global figure that's been invested in that process?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I totally agree and I've no doubt there will be a global figure. At the moment, they’re going through a process of safety assessments that Minister Ayres has mentioned. So, as that is all accounted for and it will be accounted for because you're quite right, taxpayers’ money is really important and it must be respected and honoured always. 

That will be an amount that will of course be known. But I can understand why it's not known right now because there is certainly a lot of complex work having to be done through the whole project.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Former Prime Minister Kevin Rudd spoke just last week at the press club. He suggested you could reindustrialise the country with the advent of electric cars and you could have car manufacturing on Australian soil again. Is that worth pursuing?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, that is complex, and I respect Kevin's views. We have worked together a great deal when he was ambassador for the US, and I really appreciate the work he has done. 

Look, it's hard to get back into car manufacturing and that's why we're making sure we preserve a lot of the capacities we have now like in steelmaking and the smelting capacity as well. In copper for instance. We do make certain vehicles, you know the Bushmasters in Bendigo, an iconic defence-based vehicle which is really important. Setting up an EV production line is, is going to be a challenge.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: When you say challenge, you don't think it's feasible?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I think that's because of the scale and the competition in the market that's already occurred with Chinese manufacturing now dominating the provision of EVs around the world. It would have to be a highly specialised type of vehicle for an extraordinarily niche market that would ever make it a, I suppose a commercial enterprise. Because government can't do everything. We do need sovereign capacity. We can't do everything. There's no doubt about that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: One Nation has been under fire for shifting on supporting a gas reservation policy. They say they previously considered an east coast gas reservation policy but after consultation they say with industry and stakeholders, it became clear that it fell short of their policy objectives. Do you believe that they changed their position or is there any evidence that they changed their position because of Gina Rinehart?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Look, I'm not altogether sure what's going on with One Nation policy development. The best gas policy they have at the moment is their gaslighting policy, which they're, you know, going into with vigour. 

What we've seen is in March they literally introduced legislation to have a gas reservation policy. It's quite a turnaround to say that was actually just a consultation and then in June changed their website very quietly to say they don't want to do that anymore.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But is it your observation, I mean, you deal with the same people who are lobbying, that this is what industry wanted for a back down on reservation.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I don't think it is all industry, I might add. I talk of the industry quite a lot. That's my job. The Australian energy producers, which is a representative body, backs a reservation scheme. The exporters, even Santos, back a reservation scheme. APLNG in Curtis Island backs a reservation scheme. So, the exporters back a reservation scheme, and of course a lot of the exporters are already subject to one in Western Australia. So, there's no argument from them. I suspect there's a difference of opinion in some of the producers.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Talking about Gina Rinehart-

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I've not seen the evidence for that. It does feel that way, that something's going on where there's been a massive turnaround. 

But what I do know is Pauline Hanson's first priority is not working Australians. It's not working families that need access to more affordable gas or industry that needs access to more affordable gas. It is her big business backers and that's what she does. 

It's a consistent. That's her only consistent policy, is gaslighting and following the big business backers that she has.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, since we're talking about her, it makes sense to ask you. She has said she's sorry if Prime Minister Anthony Albanese took offence to her remarks about his late mother. Also, sort of similar framing in relation to Indigenous Australians and her comments about it being a primitive race. Both obviously sets of comments have been widely condemned. Do you think that's a good enough apology? Is it settled now? 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: No, there's a way of apologising, isn't there? And what she says, and she's not the only one that does it. 

Sorry if I have caused offence. That's very different from saying, sorry, I caused offence. I didn't realise I had, but I have and I'm sorry for that. 

That's a genuine apology. Sorry if I caused offence is not really an apology. And what we see, and we saw it with, you know, a fully - a cartoon that she produced has a name on the credits. She authorised it, calling Andrew Hastie, the member for Canning, a traitor, yet walks into the Parliament the next day and says, she didn't say that at all. Well, clearly she did. She says, you know, outrageous things about Indigenous Australians, disgusting things, and then walks back into this building and says she didn't say it at all. Now that is gaslighting. 

So, what she said about the Prime Minister's, you know, much-beloved mother is beyond the pale and a pseudo-apology is just pathetic on her behalf.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I just want to take you to, you mentioned Andrew Hastie and so I'm going to make a weird segue to which I'm owning.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: That's okay.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Yeah, to a by-election that covered, you know, adjacent to you and his seat at a federal level, is my understanding of studying the electoral map. And that was a state by-election at the time you put some, some comments on the record that you think, misinformation, disinformation, AI had all been responsible for Labor's loss. Is that what you really believe?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I actually, I think I have been a bit misinterpreted there. And the Secret Harbour State electorate does form part of my electorate brand the suburbs of Port Kennedy. 

So, I think I believe I said. Or if I didn't say that's what I meant to say and you know, I don't mind if I maybe I did say this thing but it certainly the misinformation and disinformation on social media contributes to wider perceptions in the community that aren't always the truth right, so the truth gets lost in just the tidal wave of other stuff and some of it's just really quite revolting, let alone it being untrue. 

So, that's what the struggle is, I think for all of elected members or those people wanting to be elected to parliaments around the country is how do you speak to people directly and to have the truth known about things, whether that be about your own policy objectives or about history even.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Yeah. So, it goes to the speech then for some people, they feel like they have a right to say what they want and that your comments are, you know, and Anika Wells has also been quoted. Is the government hinting at wanting to clamp down on that? Is that what you're really saying?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Oh, I wasn't implying that. I didn't mean to imply that. I just think it's something we all have to deal with but you know, misinformation and disinformation and, you know, some of the things we see in social media are sometimes quite horrific and offensive and you don't want to be there anymore and that's why, you know, reforms to being able to see your feed the way you choose are really important. I'm kind of excited about it.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Ok. Just finally and it's totally not in your area, I know, but you are a Cabinet Minister. OpenAI wants copyright to be looked at. There are those who are worried that the government may cave in to these big AI companies. Are you going to cave in?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: It's not my area, but I have been an intellectual property lawyer in the past, so I have some interest, a lot of interest in it. 

This government has been very firm. The Prime Minister has been very firm, the Attorney General has been very firm. We're not for turning on this. Copyright is a, is people's property. Artists, journalists and others, you know, they work hard to create, and so they deserve the rights they have in their copyright. And you can sell it, and that's a property right, so that's a good thing. But anything less than getting properly compensated for it is theft. 

So, we won't be backing down on what we said about copyright.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: For an exchange for data centre investment, that is not something -

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: No, no, we're very firm on this, because, we honour people's work. We honour workers, like Whyalla, like tradies, or nurses. That work should be honoured and other people don't get your work for free. And that's the right thing. And so, no, we won't be backing down on copyright.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, it's so great to have you in the studio with me. Thank you.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: It's good to be here.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Thank you. And that's the Resources Minister, Madeleine King, there on the Whyalla Steelworks, Pauline Hanson's qualified apologies, and a couple of other issues.